Fire Safety with Ryan Fogelman

In this week’s episode I chat to Ryan Fogelman, Fire Protection Consultant at Fire Rover, about one of the biggest risks facing scrap yards today. Fires.

Ryan has spent the last decade helping recyclers protect their facilities from devastating fires caused by lithium-ion batteries and other hidden hazards in the recycling stream. What was once an occasional problem has rapidly become a global issue affecting yards of every size.

We break down why fires are becoming more common, what operators can realistically do to reduce the risk, and how early detection and preparedness can make the difference between a small incident and a catastrophic loss.

In this episode, we talk about:

👉 Layered fire protection
👉 Why fires are increasing
👉 Contamination in the feed
👉 Early detection and response
👉 Hidden batteries in electronics
👉 Pile management and yard setup
👉 And much more!

If you care about protecting your people, your yard, and your business, this episode will give you practical ways to think about prevention, detection, and response.

Born Scrappy.

Brought to you by Buddy.

The only marketplace and trade OS built for scrappies, by scrappies.



https://www.tradebuddy.io/

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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

27 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing…

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand.

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I built THE killer scrap app, Buddy - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Kids rugby coach. YPO member. Founder. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Committed Stoic. Aspiring cowboy.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

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Transcript

Meet Ryan Fogelman

Are Fires Increasing?

Lithium Batteries Everywhere

Needle in Haystack Detection

Stop Hazards at the Gate

Yard Audit and Best Practices

Training Tools and OSHA

CAFS Explained

After the Fire Fallout

Fires Are Inevitable... Prepare

Owning the Narrative

Insurance Reality Check

Proactive vs Reactive

What Fire Rover Does

Real Incident Walkthrough

Getting to Know Ryan

0:01

The scrap metal recycling industry has always run on hustle, trust, and sharp instincts. This is the podcast for traders and operators who want to get sharper without losing their scrappy edge. I'm Stu Kagan. Bringing you insights and stories from the people shaping the future of our industry. This is Born Scrappy. Hey, Ryan, how are you? Hey Stu, how are you? What's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Good times, man. Welcome to Born Scrappy. No, it's good to be here. It's been a long time. I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, this is an interesting one for a lot of people, it's not the normal topics, right? Normally I talk about the commercial side or the operations or stuff I've been involved in for a long time. But, um, I think. The more this is going on and fires are becoming so prevalent in the industry that we really need to deal with them, that, um, I think it's the right time to, to talk to you, so thanks for joining us, man. No, it's, no, no, it's, again, I'm happy to be here and, and you know, it's unfortunate that fires are becoming such a big deal. Um, you know, I mean, again, I started 10 years ago and they were a smaller issue. Um, you know, really. Focus more on like the a SR piles. But you know, I think now we're starting to see them kind of everywhere and you know, it's really from, you know, a lot of the, uh, personal storage, personal electronics that are kind of sneaking into the stream. So, you know, it's definitely something that, uh, we all need to learn about. Yeah. So let's, let's take a step back quickly. You said you started this 10 years ago. Give us, you know, how you got into this industry. I know you're not just in metal recycling, you're in the whole waste game as well. So how did that all start for you? Yeah, and so, so basically the, uh, the company was started by Brad Gladstone and, um, Pete Mary and Jeremy Deucing. I mean, they had been protecting scrap metal facilities for a long time. And you know, a lot of times they would see, you know, or use thermal cameras. They started using it, you know, really early on. Um, and really started to see that, um, you know. Fires were happening and they were burning down yards. Um, so they would basically, they would have, you know, footage all the way up to, you know, when the, uh, cameras would pretty much melt at that point. Um, so really the idea came from that. And, uh, you know, I, I was fortunate enough, Brad called me up, um, in 2015 and said, Hey. You know, you interested in, uh, coming up and taking a look at what we're doing. And of course, you know, when I came up and I saw, you know, we had A-A-A-B-S-U and a big Fire Rover box. It was, you know, looks very similar to, to what it looks like today and got really excited about it. And, uh, you know, kind of the rest is history. You know, it's been a, a good 10, 11 years at this point. We finished our 10 year anniversary, you know, uh, last year. Awesome, awesome. So you were there right from the beginning pretty much. You're saying he contacted you as they were getting started? Yeah, I mean, so, so when we were going to market, I was the first like only Fire Rover employee. Um, you know, and I was, I was fortunate enough to work with a pretty amazing team that, you know, launched this from the ground up. I mean, and now we we're protecting over 900 facilities, um, across three different continents, um, you know, France, Australia, um, uk, uh, Canada, and the US of course. So yeah, I, it's been I'D to, it's been pretty, pretty amazing ride. I, I said to you up front, this isn't gonna be a sales pitch, but it's gonna be hard to avoid it just because of the amount of work you guys are doing in the industry and, and solving so many problems. So, um, you know, we'll, we'll delve into more about what exactly you guys do, but, um, let's just understand, I guess, the problem a little bit more that all these, um, that all these yards are facing at the moment. So here's a question that somebody mentioned to me the other day, and I kind of. Shoot it away, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Somebody said to me, are fires actually more common now or is it just because of social media that we hear about them more? And that's a great, that's, that's a great point. Um, I think they are more common now, right? So, you know, in 2015 I started to really look at the reported fires. I formally started in, uh, 2016. Um, and we've seen a steady increase in fires. I mean, you know, there's, there's always been traditional hazards and I call'em, you know, these are the accelerants, these are, you know, the floor, it's all the different pieces that, you know, cause fires all the time. Right? And, you know, they've been causing fires for a hundred years. I think what's really changed and what we're seeing now is it's an introduction of a lot of these lithium ion batteries and like, it's not just the EV batteries. I think, you know, the, the rest of the industry or the other industries, they always think like lithium ion batteries. They think ev, it's all about the EV batteries. Um. Again, those definitely, you know, have huge risks, but what we're seeing is increased fires because you're getting, you know, vapes or you're getting earbuds or you're getting all the, the lithium ion batteries that are in all these electronics are really inundating the waste and recycling streams and, you know, getting in and contaminating the in feed. It, it's almost becomes so difficult to manage the problem with what's being delivered to you. It's almost like you have to have a system inside the yard that can see through the piles like you guys have created. You can actually see it in the pile. You can see any sort of heat that's starting to come off and, and deal with it before it itself because. How do you pick up vapes? I mean, I, I had guys in my company, New Zealand that we were just looking for EV batteries, right? We were just looking for EVs because we knew that they caused bias. This was, you know, six years ago, um, maybe five years ago, and before that, if I go back even longer in South Africa, you know, we had five really large shredders. The EV batteries weren't a thing and fires were like non-existent. I mean like, yeah, we were always careful of fires and we made sure to keep piles separate, but always the spark came from. Cutting torches or something else, right? It wasn't like, it wasn't just, there wasn't a, a battery inside a load that caused a fire. You know, I remember there being such a big fire once, uh, in one of our yards in South Africa and it lasting for days and days, and it was a complete anomaly. We were like, we didn't know what to do with the stretch. Now every yard knows that to have this problem and they have to deal with it doesn't matter how big you are, so. I don't agree with, and that's why I said I was gonna ask it anyway. I don't agree what the guy said when he was like, I think it's just good social media. We hear about them all. I think absolutely not. Right. I think they've become of an issue because of actually what's coming in the feed stock. Can you run us through quickly what some of the things that you guys identify? You said, you know, vapes, uh, is there anything else there that people can kind of know, um, what they should be looking for? The issue is, is that you're looking for a needle in a haystack. So there's so many different things that can cause, I mean, you, you still have aerosol cans and propane tanks and all these other things that you're looking for, and like even an EV battery, right, you can break it down into all the components of it, and every one of those components can cause a fire. So most of the time when we put a fire out, we don't know what caused it. Right. I mean, because really we can't see through piles, right? I mean, we're really looking at a pile and looking for a symptom of a fire. So whether it's, you know, your heat abnormality or whether you're looking for a flash or you're looking for something that you know is a symptom of a fire and then you know, you're using, you know, water or you know, like, like at wedding agents to basically try to get to it as soon as possible. And then it really is, especially in, you know, scrap metal yards. Um, it's, it's a like all hands down, right? It's, it's, you know, a water truck. It's the grapple, you know, everything's really coming together, um, to try to get that fire out as fast as possible and, you know, stop the, the black plume over the facility.'cause that's when issues really start. Yeah, you gotta get it as early as you can. Once it's going, it's an absolute nightmare. I mean, it's almost impossible to put out. What can operators do realistically? To reduce the risk before the material even enters their yard. Well, the biggest thing is education of your customers, right? Because I mean, a lot of the times you're gonna have, you know, we call it contamination, right? But I mean, it's like, how do you contaminate that in feed? You gotta make sure that you know where it's coming from. Um, early on we saw, you know, a lot of guys who were, were handling like refrigerant, refrigerators and others. I mean, they were having fires just'cause of the Freon and everything that was inside those. So sometimes it's specific hazards. Sometimes, you know, you have customers that really don't know or don't understand what they're putting in. They don't get that. You can't just throw an EV battery in or you know, you can't throw pouches, you know, so really, I mean, the biggest thing to me is like, it's education of your customers and you know, and then understanding that when the material comes in, I mean, you really can't break down every single piece of material. You look for the big pieces and then, you know, the rest of it is one of those things that this is where, you know. The answer isn't, Hey, we can, you know, find all 500 of a lithium ion battery or, you know, we can find all these different things. There's really no one way. It's a lot of different ways to look at layers of protection to make sure that you don't have massive fires. It's multifaceted. You've gotta try and stop it from coming in the gate. That's the number one way to stop it. I like what you're saying is educate your customers. Right? It's a lot easier to identify when somebody is loading up a truck, right? Or doing a collection at somebody's house or at a yard, or at an industry car, wherever else they're coming from. It's a lot easier to identify in a small batch than it is once it hits the yard floor. So if your customers are aware that this is a problem. It will definitely help you. I sometimes struggle with it because then you get customers that try hide it, which is the worst part of it all. And it's like, well, they get paid for it, so they want to hide it in and they don't understand the repercussion. So you know, it's all about customer experience and making sure you have a relationship with that customer that you can have the conversation. And also, I mean, do we penalize them when they come in with it? I think you have to because it's the only way they learn. Well, you know, there are technologies like X-ray that are looking to do an entire, you know, like they'll basically take a truck and look at every single thing in the truck to know what's in it. But you know, what happens when you have too many of a hazard? You know, do you just not, you know, process that material? So I think really, you know, you were saying it right? I mean, people are seeing these fires and they're seeing them everywhere. And so now it went from like a scooter battery was something that would happen in a house to now you actually get that battery that. Is now inside your operation. So it's like how do you make sure that you know that scooter battery is something that you're gonna take care of? Understand it, but also be prepared for it. And really, I mean, the best way that we've seen is, you know, you can try to pull it outta your material and you can go through and really try to get every single. Battery. But you know, most of the time that's really not feasible at this point. So, you know, the idea is how do you detect the fires as early as possible, knowing that, you know,'cause we're rough on what we do, right? So if you take a battery, you know they're relatively safe until you crush it or until you drive over it, or until, you know, and again. Think about a scrap metal facilities, you know, we're not, you know, the word rough is normal, right? Like that's, yeah, exactly. You know, I mean, you've been doing this a long time, so Yeah. Yeah. You throw metal around you, your metal's hitting metal all day long, right? You're processing metal with metal. It's like, there's no question that. You know, you've got a real problem if you've got those batteries lying around in the yard, so you're not gonna be able to handle it with kids' gloves, that's for sure. Well, and the ones that you do get to make sure that you, you separate'em and, you know, put them into a one drum or to put'em into, you know, the proper area so then they can be brought to a, um, proper recycler that can take care of those batteries. So it doesn't just press the problem down a little bit more, you know, every time. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Okay, so now. If I still had my yards and I was operating them on a day-to-day basis, you know, what would you say to me, um, as the starting point? I need to do an audit of some kind. After listening to this podcast, what can I go outside into my yard and how can I prepare better? I think again, it's, first is knowledge of the problem. You know, I think there's a lot of experts out there that can come to your yard and make sure your piles are of a certain size to make sure that you have, you know, enough area in between and you have a proper separation. But you know, the reality is, is that. You know, there's, there's fire like experts that will come in and, and go in and do a complete audit of your yard. Um, you know, they'll literally walk through every single hazard, you know, I mean, and again, for us, you know, we're really the, the catchall, right? Like when, when everything that you did to be a great operator. Doesn't work then that's really when we step in, right? Because unfortunately, there's a lot of great operators out there and I mean, you know, they're having fires as well, so you still really need to do your best practices. And a lot of those are, are standard things that, that everybody kind of already knows, um, or, you know, can have a fire expert come in and really create a report. Create your disaster plan. Make sure that when there's an emergency, this is what happens. And these are the, the different steps that you do take. And so, you know, again, like, you know, we had an example two weeks ago where, um, there was a fire in, in a large, you know, pile. Um, the grapple started pulling it out. We were spraying on it. The water truck came over, they sprayed on it. And you know, within 15 minutes we had it under control. And, but didn't really cause a, a major issue. So that's really what we're always trying to do is how do you get it as early as possible to understand how fast you can get it out. So, I mean, let's think about some practical tips then. I mean, not everybody has run really big yards. Not everybody has had access to a consultant that has come in there and tried to teach them. So if I was to speak to those sort of guys, I would be saying, um, pile management, making sure not to keep a one major pile in the middle of your yard. Separate those piles, even if it's the same commodity and you think, well, why would I be separating my cut grade steel or my, um, light gauge, whatever, keep it smaller piles. If you have a fire in a pile, it's a lot easier to manage if it's a small pile, right? A hundred percent. So, I mean, yeah, there's, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and making sure that you have enough water, um, and if you can, right. And if you don't have enough water, I mean,'cause you know, ideally you're gonna have as much water as you possibly can have. You're gonna have early detection. Right. But to your point, a lot of smaller yards, you know, don't have that ability. So it goes back to they have to know where their material's coming from, you know, know if there's a commodity or know if there's, you know, hazards inside of it. And then, you know, really when you. Like minimize that risk as much as you possibly can by separating and making sure that you really have control of your in feed. Yeah, so, so we are going past that part though. And I'm saying, I'm saying that's great. We've got what comes in. We are trying the best as we possibly can. There's early detection. So we've got somebody who, as the loads are tipped, I wanna have somebody there who's just checking if there's any problems. Right? We are saying we've dealt with it. If I was in the yard right now and I was a manager or owning this yard. I would wanna walk outside and I would want to check my piles, but also I would want to check, you said it now, like what sort of water have I got on hand? How much water am I actually storing at any time? You know, we used to always keep these big oil containers, those plastic oil containers filled up with water in the area and always within reach of one of the material headers so that at any time they were able to pick that up and crush it over it. So that's an immediate response. It doesn't solve the problem. But the audit that I'm talking about is like, well, what can you do to just right now? Make sure that if something happens, you're prepared. Make sure your guys are trained. Like pull the guys aside and say, what do you do right now? What is the current plan? If there's a fire in that pile over there, and if the guys are like, Hmm, not quite sure. Or if two people give you a totally different answer, you know, we need to do some training here because it's too late. Once that fire is going. Well, yeah, and that's where, I mean, the fire department can't be your frontline. I mean, you definitely have to have your guys there, but, you know, the, the issue is, is that, you know, you gotta make sure that you're not turning your, your folks and the firefighters because, you know, OSHA has a huge problem with that. Right. And, and they've, you know, they've kind of come down on a lot of the operators for this exact issue. To me, it's how many tools do you have in your tool belt? Do you have a calf system that allows you to shoot from 90 feet away? Do you have water that allows you to not be on top of it? Um, you know, as opposed to, you know, digging right in. Because a lot of these batteries, I mean, you know, they'll actually shoot off shrapnel, they'll shoot off projectiles. Um, the smoke that comes from them is really, it's, it's a lot of toxic smoke. So it's definitely not something that you want your guys like inhaling and breathing. It's a requirement now, you know, to have some sort of ability to allow them to fight it from further away, um, than really jumping right into it, you know, and dealing with the hazards that are prevalent. It's, it's so bad. It makes me think of a story. Who was running a, a smaller shredder yard in New Zealand, in Auckland. And um, my wife used to drop off the kids. Lisa would drop off the kids in the morning. I would go in really early. Yeah. And then she would head through the traffic and kind of get there at say like 8 39. And I'd get in at, I don't know, say 6:00 AM and. She'd always phoned me on the way, whatever, what's happening today, whatever.'cause we ran the company together and then the one morning she phoned and, and I didn't answer and she must have phoned like three or four times and she phoned the office and be like, Hey, where Joe? Why is he not answering my call? And like nobody answered the office phone. And she got there, there were fire trucks and she went into the yard and I was literally like on the front truck breathing in that smoke You're speaking of because I'm like, if this takes off. We've got a real problem, like I have to deal with it where it is right now, and now I'm not telling anybody to do that. I think we all learned after that, not to that, but even though my team was probably prepared, we could have been better prepared. Like I remember running around for people trying to find me a hose, like why wasn't it in the place it was meant to be? How come everybody didn't know there's a fire, there's smoke. Immediately go and grab that hose immediately. And that's where we had every morning toolbox talks, a 15 minute safety talk, and it started becoming like, okay, does every single person on the team is everybody aware of exactly what to do? And, and for me, if I'm a, you know, a business owner right now listening to this. I'm going into my yard afterwards and I'm asking questions, not in a group. Do you know what to do, do you? And if the story isn't the same. Yeah. I'm like, okay, let's get together. So, yeah, and I think as the business owner, I mean, you do have to make sure that they have the right tools in their tool belt. And I think that's exactly what you just said, right? I mean, you know, the idea is that you need to have enough water, you need to have. Pressure. There's calf systems that allow you to have pressurized water from, you know, 90 feet away with hoses and other things. And again, you don't wanna create an incipient fire brigade unless they're well trained, but at the same time, you, you really do gotta make sure that you have the things that you have set up in the right and proper places so that. To your point, when something goes wrong, everybody's ready for it. Um, and they know where everything is. They're not, you know, searching at that point.'cause usually that's when it's too late. Right. I mean, for us, I mean, I think one of the, the big things that we do is we really manage the six to 10 minutes from when a fire starts, you know, when we catch it. So we're managing that process and you know, our operators know to say, okay, hey. Call the water truck. We're calling someone on site to say, Hey, you know, bring that over. We are dealing with a, a real issue. It's a confirmed issue. Um, you know, and, and it allows us, and then we also have our tool and our tool belt to spray as well, right? So like, all those things can protect your operation, but it really is still the grapple, it's still digging out the material. It's all the other things that you need to do to make sure that you, you don't have the. Fig loss. Right. The major loss. Mm. Which is what we're trying to avoid. Uh, I just, you keep, you keep saying a calf system. Sorry. I'm gonna ask you to what calf? Um, it's a compressed air foam system. It, it allows you to have a compressed unit where you can have a certain amount of gallons and. Early on, it allows you to basically, or, and it also allows the fire department when they come on scene to have, it's basically two, two turns and, and this thing is spraying, so it's nitrogen powered. Um, so you have it and it's ready to go. You know, you use that if you have water or if you don't have water pressure. So, so just to clarify, I mean, I wanna understand if I was in the yard, like what is the one thing that I should definitely have, I'm guessing a cap system isn't something everybody can go out and get. Um, I think, I mean, they're, they're, they're relatively affordable.'cause it, it's more of a do it yourself, you know, basically they come on wheels or they're on forklifts, you know, there are forklift pockets and you just pick it up, bring it over, and you can start fighting with it right away. Um, they come from small to 200 gallons, you know, so you, you can basically build a fire truck on the back of a pickup. That's, that's really good.'cause I hadn't heard of that before. I don't know. Um. Maybe I've been outta the odds for a while, but I think that's a great little tip for everybody, that if that is affordable, if it's something they can look at, it's worth engaging with the local guys and seeing, um, seeing if it's worth having it. What do you do if you do have the fire? Like in your experience, what's the next step? So 24 hours after a fire, you've dealt with it. It was a bit of a serious fire. Your neighbors are all complaining, struggling to breathe a little bit. What do you do next? Well, and I think the biggest issue is that once the neighbors know about it, then the reporters find out about it. So, you know, one of the things you were saying before is. You know, why is there knowledge and why do we have, well, now everybody has a phone. So, yeah, there's a, a tendency for once a fire gets outta control for all the different things that you don't wanna deal with, right? You don't wanna deal with government, you don't wanna deal with insurance, you don't wanna deal with all those different people and, and issues. So, you know, unfortunately, the best thing you can do is. Get the fire out and, and not have the fire. Versus once you have it, sometimes the cat's out of the bag, right? I mean, it's a major fire and you know, unfortunately there's not a ton you can do once it's over. Now once you have a fire out and you can do fire watch or you could have, you know, thermal cameras set up so that you're doing fire walks so that the fire doesn't relight. Um, and this is where the importance of having overnight thermal cameras, right, so that you know exactly when a fire starts versus, hey, if you have four hours for a fire to propagate in a pile, I mean, it's gonna be a night and day situation versus, you know, if you know about it within, you know, 10 minutes, you know, heat escapes from the path of least resistance. So it allows you to basically be able to at least catch it early. Hmm. Yeah, I know that's probably not the answer that everybody wants to hear. You know, it's like you're like, day after you have a fire. It's, I, you know, once you have fire, shouldn't have had a fire. Yeah. Well it's not that you shouldn't, I mean, you know, it's, it's, it's a reality of the business and you know, it's one of those things that, you know, even great operators have fires, right? So it's not, you know, when I first started doing this. Um, I mean, I always say that the waste recycling operators and, you know, scrap metal, like they're the victims of this, right? Like mm-hmm. They're not asking for these to happen. Um, this stuff is thrown at your doorstep and you're required to basically deal with it. Um, and you know, there's really, I mean, as we're talking through, like I know you wanna have like, what is that answer of the magic. Pill that, you know, like you just do, and all of a sudden, you know, fires disappear. But, you know, it's happening in scrap metal, it's happening in construction, demolition, it's happening in waste and recycling, you know, and, and MSW and transfer station. So really it is like, how do you prepare for responding to a fire that's inevitably going to happen. And, you know, whether you're a small yard, you know, whether you're, you know, feeder yard or whether you have one of the largest shredders in the world, you're still dealing with the same type of fire just on, you know. Bigger and bigger scale. That's a great point. I mean, I think it's very important that we clarify that, you know, as metal recyclers. This is coming to us. This is not something that we are actually doing. It's not like we've changed the way we operate and now we're having a lot of fires, which unfortunately the media would make you think that like if you're in a local area, have a fire, all of a sudden it's that scrap metal yard or that junkyard has just caused these huge fire. Nobody's going. Actually, um, it's because we now have all these EVs or it's because of these, you know, lithium-ion batteries that are now coming in the waste and that they're causing, in fact, the middle recyclers are trying so hard to remove it and trying so hard for you to not bring it into their yard. Right. And penalizing people that bring it in. Um, and we're trying everything we can, you know, to try and stop it. I think it's important we get that narrative right. Which I think kind of touches on what I was saying. You know, what do you do afterwards? You know, the one thing is to. Hide in your shell. You've just had a big fire in your area and everybody's like hates you. Or it's actually to try and front foot it, like change the narrative and just be, you know, this is why this happened. We try everything we can. This is not our doing. This is everybody else is delivering this to us. We have big signs up. Look at the entrance. Yes. Big sign. Yeah. It says we don't take these things. This fire was caused by a battery, which we don't take, and it was. Snuck into a load, which we try and identify. We have extra costs now, which people don't realize. They're like, oh, scrapyard, junkyard. They're just having fight. We, we have people full-time watching offloaded vehicles. I mean, I had a full-time person every single yard watching what was being offloaded. Just looking for anything that could become a fire. We have fire suppression units. We are having these conversations to do everything we can to reduce it, but unfortunately the narrative is really bad. So I think after a fire is get in front of the narrative, own the narrative. Don't let it own you. Well, I mean, it's a great point, right? I mean, I, I really do think that the industry should be pushing this narrative, right? Which is, you know, we're basically processing, I mean, scrap metal, you process more material and keep it out of a landfill. So like it's pound for pound. I mean, it's, it's significant number of pounds that do not go into a waste stream or do not go into a landfill. Actually get recycled. It's scrap metal and you know, construction demolition, right? That's the, the major, you know, type of material that's actually being recycled. So to get to the public and let them understand that, like, hey, you know, a lot of times too, you know, these yards have been here for a hundred years. So, you know, and then you have everybody kind of move in the backyard and then all of a sudden say, Hey, you know, these guys are causing a nuisance. And it's like, really what these guys are doing, they're the number one recyclers in the world. Right. So you know, they're doing every single thing that you need. To your point about the, you know, the junkyard, right? Like that's the seventies and the sixties and the fifties. It was just a different time, right? So if you look at it now, I mean, it is getting in front of it and saying, Hey, you know, and this is what I think, you know, waste and recycling's doing really well, is to say. This is being caused. We're here to help, we're here to educate. We're doing everything we can to stop this problem. But, you know, this is what's causing the increase in fire, is not the fact that we don't know what we're doing.'cause clearly, you know, the, the scrap metal operators in this country know what they're doing. Yeah, I think we could do so much more. I agree with you. We know what we are doing, but when it comes to actually owning the story and educating everybody, um, we probably, we probably slack on that. Talk to me about insurance. Like how do you get involved a lot with guys? Are they, when they're talking about return on investments, I mean, are you then saying, well, you know, this is what happens to your premiums or insurance companies? Are they even still insuring metal recycling facilities? Yeah, I mean there, there's insurers out there and I think a lot of them, like what we saw early on was that they were really leaving the industry. Um, you know, and, and again, when you can mitigate the risk of catastrophic loss or mitigate the risk of major loss, you know, I mean we use on average 600 gallons of water per incident, obviously on scrap metal yards. We, we definitely can use more, but, um, a lot is, you know, protecting the a SR piles. So we're getting a lot of smaller fires that will come in from like a hot nugget or something that gets out. Um. But you know, the idea is like insurance companies are starting to understand that your risk can be mitigated. And as long as you're making the proper investments, um, you know, they, it, it's not gonna be a, Hey, we're gonna give you x percent discount. It's, they look at your history, they look at the way that you've run your operation before they look at the entire industry and, and what's going on. And then they give you basically competitive rates. Or you know, you get more competitive rates for having certain investments, and a lot of those are fire watch, thermal cameras, you know, all the different kind of pieces that basically increase your layers of protection. So are you finding that you can confidently say that if you have better suppression, better risk mitigation, you'll pay lower premiums on your insurance? Well, what I'm confident in saying is that a lot of the big companies are self-insuring, right? And so they're doing it and like they're able to self-insure, which is at lower premiums because they're able to do that when they're confident that they know that they're not gonna have massive fires that get outta control. Um, so the more you mitigate that risk, the better off you're gonna be. When it comes to the types of increases that we're seeing, um, you know, and, you know, insurance companies, I mean, they have today versus, you know, 10 years ago, um, you know, the numbers have gotten pretty insane and I think everyone's seeing that. And so it's. How do you mitigate that risk? What are you doing to mitigate that risk? And when the insurers come in, I mean, they do audits, right? A lot of times the insurance companies are the guys who are coming in and telling you what investments to make, what you should be doing, what you shouldn't be doing, all the the different best practices. So the insurance companies have gotten to the risk game and you know, they're, they're basically pushing best practices, um, based on every insurer that. You know that's out there. They all have experts that are working with them. So the reality is, yes, you can definitely get lower rates if you mitigate your risk. It's just a question of what that means is different for every single operator out there. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. It's quite interesting about the self-insuring as well. Long time ago, I always looked into, I was always worried about the first six months to year to a year of self-insuring. If you, if you get a big hit then, um, and you haven't put it up away, that's the problem. But once you get past that first year, it's a no brainer. Um, talk to me about ROI, so. Now we're talking, let's go into the suppression, the stuff that you guys are really focused. Let's talk fire over in particular then as an example of a, A system somebody should be using or could be using when you are talking to them about return on investment. You know, roll that out for me. Like how far do you go into detail with that? Well, I think from an ROI perspective, the biggest issue, and, and this is where everybody kind of looks at it, is that okay, if you have a massive loss or catastrophic loss, of course that ROI is gonna make sense, right? But then it's, okay, so what are we doing to ensure that you have a system that, you know, you can purchase equipment and it's capital and you know, for us there's a capital investment. And then, you know, really it is it, it's the fire watch. It's the person that you have watching versus having our system. And, you know, typically we're less than a, a person would be, right? So like a less than a full-time FDE. So that's really where we see a lot of the ROI. And then also from the risk mitigation from an insurance perspective. I mean that's, that's a big piece of it as well. So those are kind of the two main drivers that we see in most of our customers. If they mitigate the risk of a catastrophic loss, I mean. Honestly, the cost to clean up and all those different things. I mean, it can be massive, right? So, you know, that alone, um, dealing with firewater, dealing with all the after effects of a fire that those all go into the ROI. But really when you can break it down to, okay, this costs me one person or two FTEs, you know, and, and here's what I get out of it, that's really where we see the most positive, you know, ROI savings that, that actually move the needle. How much of the people who buy a Fire Rover have just had a fire versus proactively trying to not have a fire? Uh, that's a trick question. Um, well, I think it, it is over the years, right? We're, we're looking at it. Of course, if you've been burned by a fire, no pun intended, right? I mean, you know, you're gonna be more apt to not want to go through that pain again. And that's where, you know, I think it, it goes back to your other question, which is like, what do you do right after a fire? You know, it's, it's not what you do right after. Right. Okay. But I mean, it's making sure that you're doing everything you can not to have the incident in the first place. Because once it happens, you know, again, we're talking about education. You talk about all these other things that you can do, but, you know, once the, the hounds been released, right? That's where sometimes it's, you know, too little, too late, unfortunately. Hmm. Yeah. But I can imagine, you know. The burn, let's no pun intended, the burning platform is so much greater when you've just gone through that pain. I could just imagine. It's like the amount of phone calls that you guys would get, you know, for people like I, I absolutely need one now. I hesitated for too long. I've just spent three weeks cleaning up my facility after a huge fire. How can we get two, um, two fire rovers from you? Well, yeah, and I think there's a, like a misconception with the expense of how much we charge, right? And, and you know how much our capital is, but the reality is we can do thermal only for relatively inexpensive, right? Um, you know, and again, it's the same system. And I mean, the difference with us is that we maintain our system, right? I mean, we have a heartbeat with the system. So we know what's going on at all times. We come on site, if something's wrong, we replace it for free for the life of the contract. So like. It really is not just that capital outlay, it's, it's ensuring that for the next five to 10 years, next 20 years, right, the life of the contract that we're taking care of, every investment that you know you made, we're making sure that this thing stays a living, breathing layer of protection. Right. Because, no, it's not about just, Hey, we see a fire spray it. It's about how do you. Deal with that incident? How are you responding to it? How are we communicating to make sure that we have an audio alarm, we have the visual alarm, we're calling your guys on site. It's three in the morning. It's, you know, two in the afternoon, knowing who those are, and then also making sure that the fire department is there because the fire department can do a lot if they get there early, right? They say a fire doubles in size and cost every minute. Wow. Some people say every 30 seconds. Um, some people say every two minutes. I mean, I've heard, you know, different experts say over the years, but you know, the reality is, is that the smaller you get a fire, the the better it is always, right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, that's where the early detection is key, but you also have to react and respond to it, right? So it is how do you manage it. So just couple things here. You've given us kind of an idea of what you do. You've mentioned a whole bunch of things. Run me through what it is actually. That this sort of system can do, like, identify fires. You said, you said contact, you know the, the local fire department. So what is it you can actually do, and then can you run us through an actual incident that you dealt with that you remember quite well? That exactly this is how the system operated. Yeah, so basically we're always looking for symptoms of a fire, right? We're using thermal cameras to trend heat, right? To see, okay, is this heat out of control? If it's out of control, and this is where, you know, a lot of times folks will get it themselves and you know, in theory, yes, you, you can get a thermal camera and do it yourself, but you get a alarm fatigue. Right. You know, you're constantly just pinging against alarms and we're in active locations, right? So you have regen that's going off on equipment. You have all these different things that are moving around. I mean, as you know, all these facilities are, you know, and yards are, there's so much going on. So we're looking and verifying. So like we have one customer that I looked at. I mean, we have 14,000 false alarms to get to nine real confirmed hotspots or fires of those nine real hotspots or fires, you know, we sprayed three times. So it was like. That's where we're always looking for the needle in the haystack. We're looking for flashes, so we're looking for an explosion. So if a battery explodes and you're seeing a really hot piece of a battery go off, right, we see that as well. Um, and then like indoors, we can look for smoke for steam, you know what I mean? So we can really tell the difference between whether something's fog or whether, you know, it's smoke from, from a fire. So as we use all those, then it goes into our central station. It's UL certified five diamond facility. We look at it, um, you know, one of our agents will process it and once they confirm that there's a fire, then they go into action. We had one that I was telling you about before. I mean, you know, it, it was, it was a large metal pile. Um, you know, we see it, we're starting to see smoke come up. You know, we look over, we know that there's an event we call the fire department, right? Or we called the guys on site to bring their water truck. They brought their water truck over. Um, you know, and then the grapples in, and again, we're spraying the water truck spray. The grapples pulling out the material and the fire department showed up and everything was taken care of. I mean, it was within 10 minutes, we had everything out and it was, you know, a, a great fire event. So we've never had a major catastrophic loss at a scrap metal facility. And I'm not saying that we never will, but it's one of those that it's all about the layers of protection and making sure that every single. Piece is working because a lot of the fire experts will say it's like Swiss cheese. So every layer that you have a protection, you know, it stops you from having that one hole, but that everything can kind of fall through. Yeah. It's pretty much how safety works in general. Um, that's Swiss cheese, a hundred percent. Where are there resources that people can tap into? So if somebody's trying to understand more what they can do better, like other than business podcast, if I was leaving, I'm like, okay, well what are the resources Does Rema have? Do you guys have on your website? Where can you send people to? Well, yeah, I mean, like Rema does a really good job of doing scrap metal training. So I mean, I, I would definitely tap into your associations, right? I mean, I think that's a huge thing. Um, you know, and your insurance guys sometimes will, will be able to come on and help and then it really is reaching out to your local fire guys who really understand this and that expertise. And it's also talking to other operators. Um, you know, and I think that's really the critical part of the, the associations is what is everybody doing to ensure. Um, you know,'cause everyone's dealing with the same problem, right? I mean, these problems aren't new. I mean, they might be different on how you're processing or what type of material you're bringing in, but really everybody's dealing with the same thing. So, I mean, this is one of those ones that takes a village, you know, and, and then on top of that, it's like. How do you, like you said, like,'cause we're seeing fires increase. We've seen in the last I, I looked at 16 versus 20, and then 21 versus 25, you know, fires are up 26% and like I've attributed that to the vape effect, which again, the vape effect is just. There's nowhere to take these and there's nowhere to process them. So even if you wanna take'em somewhere, there's nowhere to bring'em. But like if your, your car's in an accident and you vapes, I mean, how many vapes are inside that car? And then inside tires, right? There's, there's lithium ion batteries now inside the tires, right? Like, you know, a lot of the counters. So, you know, that's something that we're seeing. These hazards are literally showing up everywhere and they're not stopping. Um, so, you know, and again, I'm not trying to say that to try to scare everybody, but if you look at the numbers, it's a hockey stick on how many lithium ion batteries we're gonna have in the waste and recycling streams. And they're inevitably gonna get into every load, right? I mean, you know, somehow, some way, like you said, some guy might be trying to hide it, but you know, most of these guys, they're not doing it deliberately. It's just part of the material they're pulling together. No doubt. And I think when you start look at numbers in 2030 and what we're estimating the fire numbers to be like, if something doesn't drastically change, um, I think it's gonna be absolutely ridiculous what's gonna happen in this industry. Um, and that's fault of our own. Yeah. No, and that's, it's not it literally, again, and I think that's the biggest key, right? It's a no fault of your own. Um, the operators are doing their job, you know, every day, and you're just dealing with hazards that mm-hmm. Again, it is EVs because we didn't see a lot of EV batteries causing fires. Right. But like you're starting to see more and more of those as you're getting a lot, you know, these end of life and you know, now that EVs aren't as prevalent in the US Right? Like, you know, where, you know, you're starting to see those trends. So, I mean, I would expect to see more and more of'em. And this is what I was saying from the hockey stick perspective, it's the number of EVs is supposed to be, you know, going up crazy. And then all these older EVs accidents, I mean, you know, you're seeing'em every day. It's quite interesting'cause,'cause, um, metal recyclers don't like to share their information of their yard and their ip, their downstream and how they've structured. And, but when it comes to dealing with fire hazards, this should be crowdsourced. Like we should all be together through the association. Like anybody that comes up with a way that works, share it with others.'cause it's only gonna be great for the industry. That's not making you more money, that's not making you a better competitor. Uh, against your neighbor. You know, this is just kind of saving the whole industry. If you can stop a fire in your yard and you can help your neighbor stop a fire that's gonna be better for both of you. You can fight as much as you want and compete on the front scale and bringing in all the pedler trade and whatever you want to do. But when it can stop fires, like teach the guys in your area if you are onto something and if something works, you should be definitely sharing that. A hundred percent. And I do think you're seeing a lot of folks sharing on social media, right? Or you know, on LinkedIn, and you do have a lot of guys who are coming out in the doom and gloom and saying, here's this, here's an issue, here's an issue. I, I do everything I can not to bring out any specific operator or any operations that they're having. Um, you know, I did see, like this year, I mean, we, we saw a trend for scrap metal in, in, you know, September, October, that. You know, I don't know if it's, it's a weather issue or you know, why we see it. Like every year, September, October, we start to see more fires. Um, so it maybe it's a, a material issue. That's interesting. Um. So, you know, but again, then we also see that, you know, they go down during winter months and then, you know, a lot of times we're seeing'em come back and like, we used to see really big summertime effects and now we're really seeing more of a leveling out because I think weather's always caused an issue, right? I mean, you know, whether it's hot or dry and, you know, all those different pieces. But like when you're looking at, you know, the batteries are really raising a level and, and making it so that it's really starting to become a, a more consistent trend. Ryan, this was awesome, man. I'm so glad we got to do this because I, I just think there is so much value to be talking to you about this and, and having people get together and trying to do better for our industry. But before we run, I've gotta ask you our final few questions to get to know you a little bit better. What's that? So all favorite TV series or movie. My favorite TV series of all time is Curb Your Enthusiasm. I, uh, I, I, I like Larry David Crack. Like, he cracks me up. I watch it. I mean, I think I'm on 15 times. I've watched every episode. That's awesome. Favorite place to visit. You know, really my favorite place to visit is Florida. Right? Like, I love Miami. I mean, I think it's just a fun place to get down to. And I mean, I've been going since I was a little kid, so I definitely love it down there. I mean, especially when we're in the negative, you know, 20 degrees in Columbus, Ohio this year, you know what I mean? It's, uh, it's been, it's, it, it's definitely is needed. So I love it down there. You go down there to defrost. I love it. Um, a hundred percent. What's your favorite book, Ryan? My favorite book, and this is like, you're gonna make fun of me, but I like, I have a book called Supply Chain 1 0 1 and you know, it is the most basic book that it allows me to sit back, read it again, and just understand my background was in, you know, supply chain in the beginning. So like, sometimes you just need to go back to full basics, right? Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, it, it really drives me into like. A, B, c, d, you know, it gets me kind of tied back to my, to my roots supply chain for dummies. Is that the one you said? It's pretty much right. Like, I mean, I don't even know if they make the book anymore, but I got it from business school, you know, 30 years ago. And, uh, you know, I, I still read it all the time. I love it. Last thing, it's more of a pamphlet. No, I'm just kidding. Last thing, what's your favorite quote? My favorite quote is, celebrate your wins. Right? I know it's simple, but you know, it's one of those, especially when you're building businesses and you know, you're out there, you know, doing jobs and, you know, getting out and getting work every day. You know, I think at the end of the day, like, you know, a lot of times we forget that these are amazing things that we're doing. And I think, you know, scrap metal is filled with so many entrepreneurs, all these guys just like yourself, right? I mean, you clearly every day, you know, you and Lisa are able to do that, and you know, you seem to celebrate your wins. I think you take it, uh. Pretty serious. So, you know, that's usually what I, what I try to do is en enjoy the, enjoy the blessings, you know, that, that, uh, come with life. Uh, I'm not good enough. I wish I was better, but we do try as much as possible. The problem is, you know, you have a great, we had an incredible month last month, but then the 1st of February starts, you're like, okay, now it's in February. Right. It starts over again. Exactly. Every month it starts over from, you know, zero. Exactly. Ryan, this was awesome, man. Thanks for coming and, uh, sharing your knowledge, uh, with everybody. No, thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Stuart. See you soon. Cheers. See you soon. Bye. That's it for this episode of Born Scrappy. If you have any questions, stories, or topics you want us to dig into, send it my way. Until then, keep it scrappy.