Leading from the Ground Up with Bill Sulak

In this week’s episode, I chat with Bill Sulak, President of Ferrous Processing and Trading.

Bill’s journey into scrap wasn’t planned, but once he walked through the gates as a scale operator in a three-piece suit, he was hooked. Two decades later, he's leading one of the most respected operations in the industry.

Bill shares his views on leading from the ground up, why the best training happens in the yard, and how to build and maintain meaningful trading relationships. We dig into the importance of customer diversification, what 2008 taught him, and why adding real value is the key to long-term success.

In this episode, we talk about:

👉 Building talent from the ground up
👉 Avoiding risk with buyer spread
👉 Leading during market swings
👉 Tracking operating costs
👉 Planning for key exits
👉 And much more!

Listen to the full episode, wherever you stream your podcasts.

Born Scrappy.

Brought to you by Buddy.

The only marketplace and trade OS built for scrappies, by scrappies.

https://www.tradebuddy.io/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy/


WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

26 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Hagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm sitting with Bill Sulak. Bill is the president at Ferrous Processing and Trading FPT. With over 20 yards, FPT has grown into one of North America's premier metal recyclers. Bill is also very involved in ReMA and can be seen speaking at some of their events. In this week's episode, we chat about building talent from the ground up, avoiding risk with buyer spreads leading during market swings, tracking operating costs, planning for key exits, and so much more. So let's jump into it with Bill, but first intro. Hey, bill, welcome to Born Scrappy. How are you? Hey, Stu. Doing great. How about yourself? Yeah. Awesome. It's, uh, it's a hot day in Texas. Uh, it's my happy place. So, uh, all, all good here. Where are you at the moment? Perfect. I'm in Detroit today. Beautiful Bill, we, you know, we've chatted for a while. We see each other at every conference. Um, you're hugely involved, um, in Rema and, um, getting involved, you know, as in being as involved as you can in the industry. And, and, and I love it. Every time we run into each other, we have a great conversation. Um, I think there'll be a lot more of those in our future as well, based on the 20 minutes we've just been chatting before this, but I think not everybody knows. You know, the background and where bull comes from, how long he's been around. I think, you know, I know you've been in it for a long time, but I think if you can give everybody some background, how you got into the industry and, and how long you've been been going and what you do at the moment. Absolutely. You know, I come from outside of this, this world. I didn't grow up in it, although, you know, my, my father did work at Rouge Steel. Now Dearborn works for 44 years. My grandfather actually started working there as soon as they started melting steel in the early 1920s. And my brother's there today, so it's always been in my blood. And I knew that scrap existed, but I had no knowledge of the industry at all. And graduated from college, had a couple of, you know, roles in, in a variety of industries, just knew that it wasn't the right fit. So I was looking for an industry and really an organization that met my needs. And what was that, you know, growth related industry that wasn't tied to the local economy. Grew up in Michigan, we were in a single state recession at that time, and seemed to have a lot of upward mobility. So I, I was playing volleyball. It's basically indoor volleyball in a racketball court. A buddy of mine said, Hey, I know you wanna make a change. You should check out the scrap business. What are you talking about? He said, just go to the Suave website, the parent company of FPT, and I checked them out and I could check off all the boxes. So the only position that was available was an entry level scale operator. I filled out the application, went to the yard. I was a banker at the time. Three piece suit, knocked on the door. My now COO looked at me. What are you doing here? I said, I'm here for the scale operator position. No you're not. You're no scale operator. And you know what? That was 20 years ago. And um, here we are today. I, I mean, I'm guessing that went well, that role, but you know, what do you do now when, when guys are looking, coming outta college, can you still get guys outta college that you know will, will jump on a front scale? Or are you finding you have to change things at FBT and give them different sort of ways or different routes to come in? You know, it's always our preference to start someone on the ground floor and. We, we love that because we're an industry that has such a tremendous amount of grit and ingenuity, and the only way you learn the business truly is by doing it yourself. And while I don't have as much experience as, as someone that's been, you know, working a material handler, operating a shredder for 20, 30 years, just that, you know, that time that I did have in each of those different tenets of our organization was a absolutely critical. So we'd love to really bring someone in at the ground floor. Bring them up through our system, give them experience in all aspects of our industry. And, and over time we find that that leads to the best long-term result. However, you know, if, you know, we have experienced individuals that wanna join our team, you know, they, they make up an important part of our, uh, of our family as well. It, it's a really, um, important topic for our industry as a whole. So when we diving straight into a topic, just'cause it came up, but, um. You know, bringing in college students or bringing in the next generation into the industry, it's, it's a lot harder.'cause there's much sexier industries where people can go in a three piece suit or people can, you know, work from home, which we can't really do. Uh, you can't run our operations from home. So we will work in the operations. I should, you can't sort metal from home at the moment. So when, when kids are coming out of college and it's like, well, where do they go? You know, I'm, I'm almost. Willing to say, okay, well if you, if we're gonna put you on the track to be more in logistics, I might stick you more on that side. Um, or if I'm gonna put, you're gonna be more on the account side. You know, I might give you a, a shorter period in the yard, a longer period actually, um, learning to negotiate and trade and operate. I'm not saying that's the right way or the best way, but is that the way we bring in more people or do we just stick to the way we've always done it? Hope people join the industry. So are you familiar with Grace Hopper? No. Look her up afterwards. But, uh, you know, really, you know, someone that was groundbreaking in computer science, a field that you're familiar with and was an AD in the Navy, and you know, my favorite quote from Grace. Is the most dangerous phrase in the English language is it's the way it's always been done. And yes, what I described is my preference and how we typically like to manage that process, but you have to do it on a case by case basis and you're always trying to improve. So yes, I think today we prefer that people go through that full system, but. I don't know if people have the patience to, to sometimes see that through. You have to show'em a light at the end of the tunnel and you have to let them know that, hey, okay, you know, this is part of the process. And depending on their propensity and natural gifts and talents that they possess, you can quickly see which area that they, that they gravitate towards and start nudging them in that direction. But still like to give them as much of that background as we can. Yeah, and I think for us, one of the key things, what you touch on is, um, is trying to show them the opportunity in the industry that you might be doing this today. But here's example X who was once doing that, who's now doing that? Here's example Y who was once doing that and is now doing that. Like you, you know, you started at the ground, you arrived in a three piece suit and then you handled the the scale. But it makes it difficult for us. But I think you've got to lead with that and the more the industry as a whole shows it. The more people will be driven to our industry. So that's where it comes to social media, promoting our industry and showing that there is so many places you can go, right? All of a sudden you're a commodity trader, right? In our industry, we trade commodities. You know, you're a commodity, you're an investment banker. If you get to certain positions, you're an investment banker, right? Like, I mean, the different things that people are doing in this industry win. College students look at the industry, they often think junkyard. We need to get them thinking, wow, it's like a whole nother world of wherever I might be strongest is where I could land up. I, I agree with you completely, and, and it is a whole nother world. It's, it's an entire universe that's out there for, for, for people. Uh, now, frankly, myself personally. I'm thankful that Moore didn't pursue it because it might not have opened up the opportunity for myself. Uh, I'm someone that always believed in going in the opposite direction, and, you know, this industry was that for a period of time, but it doesn't have to be because there's the potential really to turn it into whatever you want, and that that possibility doesn't exist in most industries, in most fields. So I know, um, at FBTI know you run the commercial team as well, and it's a part of, you know, um, your experience that you've had on the buying and the selling side. And at the end of the day, you know, we're trading metal on a daily basis. Can you think of, uh, an experience that you've had which offered you like some significant learning that may, you know, has stuck with you forever and everything that you ever train anybody is revolving around, you know, maybe one story or a few different stories? Gotcha. Well, you know, the thing that, you know, just a period that sticks out 2008, you know, for those of us that, you know, were, were involved in the business at that time wasn't that long ago, but I, I know for myself, just that product diversification and diversification of customer base and strength of relationship, I know that those are things that are common sense and that everyone, you know, says, you know, hey. You have to diversify your customer base. You have to, you know, really focus on developing relationships. But when your book of business goes from X to zero, literally overnight, you really learn in that moment what those relationships truly mean, and you really understand in an instant the value of having other options. Uh, so that no matter what happens, which effectively that is the worst case scenario, right? Your entire business, I hope so, dries up overnight. It doesn't get much worse than that. How could that see worse in 2008? Yeah. So if, if you, if you can make it through that, you can make it through any, any, anything. And it, and it was just reinforcing the basics of what we know, but sometimes don't always practice. So Bill, I want to double click on that quickly because you talk about, um, diversifying your customer base, but you also talk about building strong relationships. And a lot of people in this industry, you know, think that that's two opposite things. Because, well, if I have a strong relationship with you, I, I'm gonna be selling you a lot of metal, but how do I diversify and have 20 people that I sell this commodity to, but then that ruins my relationship with you? No, they're complimentary. They're complimentary. Uh, because all of our needs change. And in some cases, you know, I'll, I'll focus as a buyer in this instance. My program needs might change significantly from one month to the next. If you are a valued supplier and you're completely reliant upon my program, that puts both of us in a difficult situation, so they are complimentary. Because there is that fluidity in the marketplace. It really is reciprocal as far as the benefits of maintaining a strong relationship. But a part of that is just understanding the ebbs and flows of the industry and working together as those needs change. And that requires, you know, a, a broader customer base. And it's even, you know, even on the other side, I, I guess it is actually the same way you showed it, but if I'm selling material. If I'm selling metal on a daily basis and I'm relying on two or three buyers that are always buying the same metal, if something happens for any reason in their geography, um, for example, maybe I'm supplying Pakistan or this material and I'm comfortable with them because, but all of a sudden their currency, you know, falls away, it becomes a massive problem. Although you don't have any US dollars anymore, which happened just a few years ago. All of a sudden you're stuck with. They're the only place I built a relationship and the relationships are meant to, they're meant to buy from me forever because we have a relationship. And that's what I always get told that, well, a relationship will make sure you always have a home. Yeah, you do always have a home when they're buying. Exactly. When they want your material. And at any time, if you are off not offering to multiple commodities and build, sorry, multiple geographies or multiple buyers to make sure that you're always getting the best option. Often you won't be getting the best prices because you've just reliant on one relationship. I, I agree. I agree. And, and I think we found that in 2008, and if you lived through that in 2008, um, you're very careful now to be, uh, stuck in one market because we've, I mean, we're seeing it now with Thailand. We just, you can't be stuck into one market. You have to have more options. You can't, um, I mean there, there are some instances where it's not practical, uh, based on the commodity or the mode of transportation that is available for certain processors, uh, to, to go outside of a certain area. But that exception aside, you know, the more, the more markets that you have access to. The better it is for you, for your organization, and the better it is for those those customers because the dynamics change so quickly. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, and trying to predict that is, is almost impossible, as we've all seen is, is impossible. It is. So when you, when you are then trading your metal and you are selling your metal around the world or locally inside the us, what are some of the key factors that influence who you, who you decide to actually sell that to? Gotcha. It, it is, it's, it's the relationship and consistency that, that is a significant component. You know, obviously price plays a role, um, but usually when you have that relationship, the, the, the, the pricing will, will follow. Um, I mean, there's, there's always limitations and, you know, based on dynamics, but, um. It's just those basic principles, and of course you have to, you know, credit is important. You know, we all need to get paid for, for the services and products that we produce. How do you ensure your team build those relationships? I mean, somebody wrote to me just the other day and they said. Stuart feel you don't press your guests enough to give us practical experiences and how um, actually they do it.'cause it's easy to give an over, well, we do better relationships, so we, how are you making sure your team is constantly working on those relationships, constantly getting the best prices out there? Great question. Really building, having a relationship. It's, it's more than having someone's business card. Um, it takes time and you have to prove yourself. You know, for my team, their goal is to know the business, you know, of their customers, as well as those individuals know their business, because that's how they're gonna be able to add value. And if you do that over and over and over again. It becomes easy, and then that commercial piece is just natural because you're adding a tangible value to their business that others simply are not. And I think it's really that easy. You know, that answer can roll out in any industry around the world and, and I'll tell you why. Because as you were saying that, I was like, you know what? When I look at my customers on Buddy that I work with, I always say, I'm literally, I work for you now. Right. So there's no, there's no cost to be on Buddy. We have a take rate If you trade and you conclude anything, I understand the business of my customers as well as they do, because I've been doing it for 27 odd years. Exactly. So when, when they're saying, oh, um, they put up a picture of maybe some motors, I can say to them, Hey guys. Those photos aren't great. Like have you thought about maybe taking out those few motors and putting them in a different parcel and then you'll get a premium rate for this? They benefit from that and they become a lifelong customer with an incredible relationship. Absolutely, and it's exactly what you want your guys to. Good. Exactly, exactly. I mean, anyone can go in and offer someone a dollar more, a ton or, you know, give a discount price on this. That's, that's not sales, that's not having a strong commercial acumen. Um, it's, you know, how so how are you going to add value to those customers that, you know, frankly, you know, puts you above the rest? And, and, and, and that value added proposition from my perspective. Has helped me, you know, develop some really wonderful and longstanding relationships, and that's what I expect from my team as well. I really like that. It, it does mean your team has to be well-trained, which takes us back to the first point, which is probably need to spend a little bit more time in the yard, but they can grow that at the same time, learn from other customers what worked at some, learn from other people in their team. Um, have a strong team with strong leadership, really makes that much easier to achieve. But yeah, I think once you're adding that value and it's not just monetary, um, you have a huge impact with relationship and which has then an impact on the bottom line. Absolutely, like all metal recycling companies and the majority of people that listen to Born Scrappy, um, own or work in a metal recycling facility operation, um, we need to buy metal. We have to buy metal. We, our businesses are nothing. You can get the fancy equipment if the metal doesn't come in the door. Those hungry monsters sit there, um, with nothing to do. You don't have a business for very long. What's your strategy to bring metal in the door? And I'll just, you know, some people are like, well, social media, some people are like, well, my location, um, pricing is really important, but how do you tell people about that marketing? I have people, what are you guys at FBT or what have you seen work really well to bring scrap or metal in the door? Great question. It, it varies slightly from, you know, region to region, depending on the market. Um, you know, in, in some of our more mature markets, we've been around since, you know, for, we celebrated our hundred and 20th anniversary last year. So, and some of those in our legacy footprint, you know, the, the name is better known than, you know, other markets where we're, we've just entered them in the last year or two. Um, so there's a, a variance in strategy, you know, depending on, on, on that location where we're, you know, those more mature markets. You know, people know who we are, but it's just trying to provide that service focus on the relationship, which it's easy to stray from that model when you are, you know, a well-known commodity. So I still have to continue to remind the team to have that focus. It doesn't go away. It's more critical than ever. Okay. Newer markets, yes. You have to rely on other sources because you know, you're, you're entering the market and you're, you're developing that goodwill and you don't have that name recognition. So it's a variety of both, or a combination of both. Okay. So what do you, but what do you do, bill? You enter a new market, you haven't been there for 120 years. How are you getting middle in the door? What we've done is first kind of like building a shopping mall. You have your anchor tenants, uh, which is usually framed with, you know, a a couple of key relationships. Then it's community engagement and, you know, which includes, um, local chambers, you know, the, the, the, you know, local, uh, political figures and just going out and establishing relationships with the business. And some of the smaller communities that we serve, um, doing, you know, a lot of, you know, charity functions and, you know, community outreach functions have been really successful for us. Um, frankly, haven't utilized social media as much as we should, but recognizing now that it's an absolutely critical tool and starting to take better advantage of that as well. It's a really good point. Some of that stuff doesn't cost any money. I mean, social media doesn't have to cost you any money. We have incredible content owning, metal recycling yards. You can take photos every single day of what's coming in examples, and, and we've got great people in our yards to be able to include in it. So that doesn't have to cost any money. And neither does the charity work. You know, we are not asking, you know, you see, um. A couple of my good friends in the UK that donate these really big checks and they go and they take a big check and it says the big amount that they're donating to whatever. Cause doesn't even have to be that, you know, it can be placing, placing a bin in an area to collect can, um, you know, being aligned with, um, Jessica with the, um, million can operation. So doing that sort of stuff gets your name out there, especially when you go into a new area and you know. What seems like, I mean, it's also benefiting you, but, but bringing in the cans, bringing in any metals from areas and helping people clean up their areas or clean up their schools definitely gives you some great exposure as a new person in an industry. Exactly. And you know, from a business perspective, you know, it's, it's common knowledge. You know, you know, you, you say, you know what, any, any good deal has to benefit both parties. Right. Well, in this case, you know, I believe that reciprocal relationships, if you haven't noticed a common theme. Are critical in all aspects in life. You know, we truly believe that it's our responsibility to be good stewards of the communities that we serve. And if I really believe that, then that community outreach is part of our responsibility, um, yes, there is a benefit that goodwill, you know, typically does over time provide a a, a tangible and positive benefit to your business. But you always have to start by doing the right thing. And if you do the right thing. Then these things occur, it takes time and it's never easy. But over time, uh, we found that, uh, the rewards are, you know, always outweigh the effort. Always like, um, going into, we had, you know, 80 odd, 85 yards and we were constantly opening. New areas in Southern Africa. And what we would do is we would align ourselves with local schools, align however hospitals get all any of the recycled metal, clean them all up for them, give them all that money. Um, and then we would ask if we could put up, and this is a little cheat sheet for anybody listening, ask if we could put up a banner or a big sign that said, um. You know, X school working hand, hand in hand with FBT to keep whatever town clean. And that banner gives you this halo effect. So even though you're new in town, immediately some, a school that's been there 200 years is now affiliated with you and now they see you in the same light. And we found that that had a huge impact to get, um, you know, public positive sentiment when you are opening up a new metal recycling operation. Agree completely. Now, I want to talk a little bit about data and I, I think you love this part of the world as well, um, especially in your three piece suit. So arriving to work on the scale. So let you know how are you using data? Do you rely on data a lot to make decisions, or is it still quite a bit of gut feel? Um, just gimme overarching, like, like where are you using data? Where could you be using it better? How's, how's it going on your side? Yeah. So, you know, after a while when you really have your fingers on the pulse, it really is running through your veins. I always, you know. Say in our business, you have to marry the both. It's the art and the science. You know, the art is that, that gut feel and that intuition by, you know, having the tenure and the relationships in the industry, the science is the data piece. And you, you, one, it's a challenge to be successful if you're only relying on one and not the other. There. Complimentary and both necessary when we look at data and metrics. I'm a data junkie. I want it all. I wanna see it all. What I love is, and you know, I've had my team develop some of these tools for me. I, I wasn't able to find a, a package that had the ability to do this, but I love something where I could see it. I, it's a, I travel like you almost exclusively. So whatever the messaging is, I need to be able to see it at 50,000 feet literally, um, and understand the messaging in like 30 seconds or less. But then when I want the detail, have the ability to zoom in at the granular level and understand everything that makes up that, that message. Um, so I couldn't find a tool that did that. So I've got a couple of people that are really, really good. Putting those types of things together and, um, they know what I'm looking for and have been able to, to, to really assist myself and my team in that regard. You know, what are those metrics? Yes. Freight is, you know, when, when you look at our industry, it's, it's really simple. You know, freight is so critical, so slicing freight up into, as you know, many little pieces as, as is practical just to make sure that you're maximizing that component. As much as possible, metrics are, are critical. Just when I'm looking at, you know, do I want material to go to this yard or that yard? Um, on the commercial side, of course, you know, what's the, you know, there's a lot that goes into, to the, you know, to the purchase price and even the sale price. You know? Yes. We, we, we all want to buy the scrap that we process at the lowest possible price. Sell it for the most, but every pound that you purchase isn't going to be all the way down here, and every sale isn't going to be at the top. And it's just using all of that variety of data points and historical information, coupled with some projected future trends, which you know, usually don't pan out as you think they would and take that together so that you can apply that gut instinct and quickly make a decision to move forward. Have you got anything? And you might not be able to think off the top of your head about this, but I mean, anything that you've asked for from your guys that are really good at putting this together that they were just like, wow, that's gonna be super hard, but it's really exciting. Or something that somebody else hasn't thought of. I'll give you an example. So, um, for me, one of the key things was always when we have 85 yards was I needed to know my all in cost. For any commodity at any time, so I could work out what my margin was. Now that's really difficult'cause that includes all your freight in plus your upgrading or downgrading plus post shredding. So it, there's a lot of different factors at play. And um, in South Africa we actually had a, um, we had Stephen Friedman who was building these systems for us, that was a rocket scientist. True story. He was actually a rocket scientist. Hmm. And um, he had a team of people underneath him doing it. And I remember sitting with him and he's like. That sounds impossible, but it's exciting. So I'm gonna try and work on, I don't think we ever got it perfect, but it's the kind of number that could help me gauge. It was never perfect, but it could help me gauge certain things. Well, similarly, I, I think some of those predictive models, um, you know, maybe, you know, possible or, uh, you know, in the, in the future as we see advancements in ai. Um, that's where I think, you know, I've, I've reached the limitations in many cases of what I've been able to extract today. Uh, because in our industry, one of the things that I love about it, but it also makes it so frustrating, is the number of uncontrolled variables. I haven't been exposed to an industry that has more uncontrolled variables than, than, than the one that, that, that we're in and, um. Because of that, it just makes it more of a challenge to really develop some of these predictive models. Mm. Yeah. It's, I think there's massive opportunities for it. Another, another thing that just popped into my head was, um, if you look at the site, um, the cyclicality of the global markets, and if you take into consideration Chinese New Year and Ramadan and, um, our New Year's and our, everything has. Effect on the market and every year is very similar. You know, one of the largest, uh, middle recycling company in the world, um, sells a lot of their bulk vessels at the same time of the year, every single year.'cause financial year ends coming. And that does affect global trends. So, um, we, we were able to have the historical trends and it's not gonna get it perfect. Maybe it's gonna be slightly better than 50%, but if you take that and you take the last 20 years and you take out any of the, um, black swan events. All of a sudden you see a similar pattern every month. If you have that in mind and you know that, you know, June, there might be a huge amount of bulk vessels sold. So the prices are gonna drop because of the largest players. Um, but after that, the prices could rise over the next two months. It helps you make those decisions. So something that we try to build, but I think with AI is gonna be so much easier to build that now. Absolutely. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot. There's a lot. I mean, I spend a lot of time looking at how AI can help us, not. Creating a solution, looking for a problem, but focusing on the problem and seeing how we can create a solution when, um, bill, when you are building up a team and as, as, as the leader of your, of your company, you're constantly building up a team. But what do you do about key person risk? So one of the guys that's been with you for 15 years and you know, he, he gets hit by a bus tomorrow, let's not even, yeah. Let's say nobody's poached him, but he gets hit by a bus tomorrow and he's right. How are you constantly managing that as a risk?'cause there's a leader in your position that has to be something that you are always setting up processes and systems. Absolutely. I mean, every business, when, when you look at it just fundamentally, it's people. Processes and, and CapEx that, you know capital? Hmm. What your question really focuses on the first two pieces of that puzzle. Yes. You know, when, when we find someone bring them up through our system, you hold on as tight as you can. And, you know, from a retention standpoint, you give them the tools. Um, you help them to focus on, you know, their area of expertise. And you reward them and then you, you really make sure from a cultural standpoint that you're creating an environment that allows them to flourish and where they wanna continue to be, you know, part of, part of the family. They get hit by a bus. Two different things. Exactly. Fortunately it hasn't happened yet. But it's, it's the next man up theory and we're, you know, always consistently trying to, you know, build the bench and instill those same principles and, and philosophies into, into our team regardless of the, of, of, of your level of the organization. And, and I like that, you know, it's the person on the bench constantly focused on who's on the bench, who is able to do this role in the future, and whether it means somebody could be retiring or hit by a bus, it's something that, uh, especially larger businesses have to really consider and make sure that they are monitoring at any stage. Absolutely, absolutely. Especially in this age. Uh, I don't, I don't have the statistics. Uh, offhand of people getting hit by a bus, so what? Yeah, but I, no, but, you know, retirement, uh, I, I know when I look at my own organization and, uh, I, trust me, I'm, I'm holding on, but we have such a well tenured team that at some point, uh, they've, you know, many of them have threatened to retire, uh, at, at some point in life. And for a, a good number of them that that timeline is five years or less. So it's. Embracing all of the good and value that they provide to the company and really benefiting from that expertise. That was one of the things that was so critical for me and, and really was probably one of the main drivers that allowed me to move up in the industry over the last 20 years into the role that I hold today. It's, it was. Really taking advantage of those mentors that were willing. And so many of them are to just pass that information and transfer it down to the next generation. They want to, they're, and I was gonna say, they're past the point where they have, you know, there's nothing in it for them. They just wanna share it. And they're so giving of that. And I've always found it so curious that, um. More individuals aren't, you know, as they're moving up in their career, aren't seeking out those, those mentorship type relationships to take advantage of those dynamics. Um, but that's something that we're really focused on and, and, and trying to do. It's, it's to have that transfer of knowledge, uh, and information from, you know, the current generation to the next. It's not perfect. Uh, but it's something that we really strive to take advantage of and, and is a key focus of ours with our team. What's so interesting is, um, a lot of people think about it negatively and like, oh, you know, if you, if you building up cover for me, that means you can get rid of me. It's actually we want to build a cover for you in case something happens for the business, but also to free you up to do other stuff because exactly. A lot of people are bogged down by working in the business, but they have this amazing ability if they had time to work on the business. So the, but the day to day you need to be able to take away from them. Um, so it's, it's about managing that correctly and I think if you do, you can be very successful. What's quite interesting, in my old company we used to say ww MMMD. So what would Michael Moss do? And um, Michael Moss was our old, um, CEO and he went on to run Sims North America. And, um, it, it was quite interesting because now I think about it, I'm like, if I knew Michael was leaving within three years, I would create a Michael Mob says. GPT, because with AI I can actually learn from every one of his emails and I could learn of how he conducts meetings through transcribing all the meetings. And I could say to him, all I'm gonna do is I'm gonna create something that when you're not here, I can ask it a question. Right. Um, and that's really with technology, you know, if you started to lose somebody who's, say for example, been your head trade, somebody who's been in your commercial team for 25 years and he runs this whole team well. Let's learn from him. How does he manage certain situations? Right? There's a big negotiation going on. There's a, a claim, which is based on a market drop. How would he handle it? And you can learn from all the emails. And if you start planning now in three years time when he does decide to retire and everybody's really happy, well you not all of a sudden live for the massive, um, Michael Moss size whole. Um, um, but, uh, it's, it's something that technology can now do. So how do you see technology affecting our industry in the future? Well, we've talked about, you know, software a bit. We've talked a little bit about AI and, and I, and I think the, you know, the potential there is, is significant for, you know, commercially from a transportation perspective. And operationally, I I think that, um, in all walks of life, we're at a point where we're going to see a, a period of time when we look back 20 years from now, where there's a significant paradigm shift. In the way that information is generated and used, there's almost no limits now with the advancements in AI to, to what we'll be able to do in the next several years. Some of the things that excite me, we've already talked about, you know, those predictive models. Um, you know, it's, it's really going to be neat to see how that advances, but also just in how we process our material, you know, uh, material identification. I know that's something that a lot of people are talking about. Uh, it's, it's there. That's really exciting and we're looking forward to that. You know, material separation, that's something that we've been focusing on for the last five to 10 years, and some of that technology is hitting the market now. That is really gonna change the way that we process a lot of our, our materials. Um, so it's, it's a really exciting time. Yeah. And I think, um, if I look back to the era of my parents, you know, if they thought, oh well the internet, uh, you know, whatever this thing is, let's ignore it. It'll go away. And I look at the parents that kind of, well, my parents generation who. Who did actually utilize it and did actually use it. And they, they get a lot further and they can, you have to jump on Facebook and all these sort of things and, and use a wifi. And then you've got the other generation who just can't. And if you're thinking like that in AI and you think, oh, well, I'm just gonna bury my head in the sand like an ostrich, I think you've got another thing can coming, like it's adapt or die. If you think your fourth generation business is gonna be around for the sixth and seventh generation, if you don't start adapting now, think you've got another thing coming. I, I, I agree. Um, yeah, I love quotes. I really do. Uh, actually at my home office, I just have a wall of my favorite quotes. Nice. Uh, and it's, it's ever changing. But, uh, there's another one. And, and that's embrace everything. You, you really do every, you know, with every challenge in life, you know, it provides an opportunity and. You know, with technology, we, we have to embrace it. Uh, if you don't, you're gonna be left in the dust. I think it's as simple as that. We've now got me really excited for the final question at the end, which is your favorite quote. So I'm gonna work out how you know, you had to choose one, so that's gonna be quite interesting when that comes around. But we'll get there soon, but not yet. Not yet. Bill, one or two more questions. First, I wanted to ask you about equipment. When you guys are making a decision to buy a new piece of equipment, what is the process that you guys follow? Number one, what is the pro to follow? Um, whether you, what you want to buy, but also that you need to buy something. Gotcha. So I mean, two buckets. You know, you have your sustaining or maintenance CapEx and then your, your growth cap. So what we've done is really standardized the way that we manage our sustaining or maintenance piece. You know, you, you look at the useful license of an asset and what we've done a better job is, you know, looking at not only just trying to put it on a seven year cycle or based on number of hours, but also with the experience with that. Specific equipment type or manufacturer. When you start to see those r and m costs really, you know, accelerate or instances of downtime and trying to, to move before you hit those periods where you're losing a lot of money on your p and l because you just have a piece of equipment that's dead in the yard. Or you're spending an exorbitant amount of money just keeping her going. Um, so we've done a better job of managing that piece and it's really had a significant impact on our r and m cost in our, in our downtime. And it's a combination, you know, and that also impacts the decision making process of when we purchase or when we lease, you know, on the growth side. Yes. You would love that growth budget to be infinite, right? Because there's, you know, seemingly an infinite amount of opportunity in our world, uh, but it's not. So you develop the budget back into it and you just look at, you know, rate of return and growth potential, you know, impact to the business and what is the worst piece or best piece of equipment you've ever bought. And you don't have to mention the brand name if you don't want to. Yeah, so the the worst piece of equipment that we've ever purchased really was a really good piece of equipment. We just didn't do the homework. We thought we were buying something for X. We thought that the output was going to be why. But we didn't do the homework on the front end to realize that it wasn't the right tool for our needs. So it wasn't the equipment's fault. That's a very costly mistake. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I get that. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, when you guys, when your equipment comes to end of life, are you the company that, um, cuts it up? And it melts it or do you sell it back into the market? Like speaking to the likes of dad auctions who take our equipment and put them into the market? Or you just like, no, no, this must go to no one.'cause it could go to opposition. So it's rare that we'll sell used equipment back into the market. Usually we maximize the useful life of that equipment and actually,'cause we've got such a great team in our engineering group and you know, maintenance technicians that were usually able to extend. The life of that equipment well beyond what is typical. So usually there's not much left of it when we're done. So it gets cut up. Cut up and melted. Yes. Uh, last thing, bill, before we go to the Quick Fire, getting to know you round, um, who do you want to hear next on Born Scrappy? Hmm, that's a good question. Really, I, I don't know. I, there's not a name that's coming to mind. If I think of one, I'll let you know, but I'd love to hear the perspective of, you know, I, I love to hear all perspectives, but especially more, you know, operations oriented. I, I know that some of these questions are more commercial oriented, but their view on some of these topics as well, you have to be well-rounded in this industry. And, and I think that perspective really helps, uh, those that are more. Commercial oriented really do a better job in their, their roles as well. Hmm. I think it might be, it probably has more to do with the questions than the people that I've had on. So maybe we can do, you know, next season maybe we just focus more on operational questions and, and we try to bring that a bit more in with the equipment, uh, which we threw now at the end. But, uh, I hear what you're saying. It makes sense. Uh, bill, let's get to know you a little bit better before we go. Have you got a favorite TV series or movie? I don't watch television. Um. Huh. I love Christmas movies. Okay. And by the way, we're halfway to Christmas. Okay. You have true, true. It's, uh, so, uh, but yeah, you know, television, I just, uh, I think the average, what's your favorite Christmas movie? Oh, um, it's a Wonderful Life. Okay, cool. Then there you go. You got a favorite movie? Just yeah, I do. I do. What's your favorite place to visit? I travel extensively like you do. So as a result, I really cherish my time at home. Basically, wherever my family is, I wanna be there with them. And if I can be out in nature and with my family, that's when I'm the happiest. But I'm not gonna let you get away with that. You have to choose a place. Gimme one name, one place that you'd like to go to that if you could go take your family there right now, where would you go? Okay. I really love Wyoming. I really love, uh, grand Tetons National Park. That's, that's really a spectacular place. I really just asked that. I have a list of places to visit, so it's a little bit selfish, so I'm glad you gave me somewhere to take my family. Well, you should check it out. Yeah, no. Uh, I know you love reading. So what's your favorite book? My favorite book that I've read this year is Strength to Strength. Mention it and it's, you know, I, I used to just recommend books. Uh, I learned upon a, a specific recommendation that I should actually read the entire thing first before recommending, but this one is my favorite this year. Um, it's not complicated, but I think especially with where I am right now in life, it was really impactful for me. I've read it a couple of times and, um, it's a great read. Amazing. Okay, last thing, because you're a massive quote guy, it fools your wall. If you had to choose one favorite quote, what? Alright, I'm ready. Let's do it. So it's attributed to Winston Churchill, although I'm not sure that he actually said it, but I think it's a wonderful quote and that is this success is not final. Failure is not fatal. It's the courage to continue that counts amazing. And I think it just encapsulates our business 100%. I think that is the most incredible quote. I absolutely love it. Um, I always knew it as wins and shirts. I didn't know it wasn't necessarily his, so I'll make sure to mention that next time. Um, maybe I'd have to ask chat, GBT when we're done here. Who actually did say that, but um, bill, on that note, uh, that's the end of the episode. It's been amazing having you on the show. Thank you so much for joining Born Scrappy. Thank you so much. It's been my pleasure.