Born Scrappy
The go-to podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders
Born Scrappy
Weathering the trade storm with CARI Chairman Brian Shine
In this episode, I chat to Brian Shine, CEO of Manitoba Corporation, Chairman of the Canadian Association of Recycling Industries (CARI) and a former Chairman of the Recycled Materials Association (ReMA).
With all the turbulence around tariffs, this is a point in time conversation where we explore how the latest US and retaliatory tariffs are impacting metal recyclers and consumers across the US, Canada and Mexico, and how they may be impacted in the long term if this is the new status quo.
In today's episode, we talk about:
👉 The long terms impacts
👉 Supply chain resilience
👉 Consumer capacity
👉 Trade associations
👉 And much more!
Listen to the full episode. Wherever you stream your podcasts.
Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.
The only marketplace and trade OS built for scrappies, by scrappies.
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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?
26 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...
I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.
I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).
I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.
Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.
COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN
Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I speak with Brian Shine to find out how the latest U. S. tariffs are affecting his business and all those in the U. S., Canada and Mexico. Brian is the CEO of Manitoba Corporation. He's the current chairman of the Canadian Association of Recycling Industries and a former chairman of ISRI, now REMA. I couldn't think of anyone better to share with us what the feeling is like right now for metal recyclers and consumers on the ground. On the back of this interview, Buddy has decided to offer all our Canadian friends 50 percent off its onboarding fee for the month of March. So if you are a Canadian recycler looking to export to trusted buyers, visit us Please go to the Buddy website at tradebuddy. io and register. In today's episode, we talk about the long term impacts, supply chain resilience, consumer capacity, trade associations, and so much more. So let's get going and jump into it with Brian. But first, intro. Hi, Brian. How are you? Doing really well, Stuart. How are you today? Yeah, I'm awesome. Thank you. Welcome to Bored Scrappy. It's a pleasure having you on. Thank you. I'm happy, happy to be here with you today. Looking forward to it. Brilliant. I mean, no doubt, very, very tough times for you and the industry in North America. But, um, you know, we'll delve into that, but, you know, I'm glad we got you on anyway, because I I do see you at all the conferences and we hang out wherever possible. And I'll be seeing you in like a week's time in Atlantic city. Yeah. Um, so yeah. Great. Yeah. Awesome. Brian. So I kind of want to understand for those that don't know you, and I think anybody around the North American scene definitely knows you very well, but, um, for those that don't, can you walk me through Brian, how did you land up in this industry and, you know, what you guys do now? Um, and I think there's also a succession plan of some sorts as well happening. So talk me through, uh, what's going on with you. Sure, happy to do so. So, yeah, long history of me personally, but this really goes back to my great grandfather, who immigrated from Eastern Europe, uh, settled in Buffalo. I'm not sure why he picked Buffalo, but, but he did. And, um, he was trying to get a job in a local factory, and because he couldn't speak English, um, they wouldn't hire him at the time. So, it's a pretty common story in the recycling industry, as you, I'm sure, have heard many, many times and well know. Um, he had to feed his family, so he started with a push cart walking the city streets in, in Buffalo. And he built up a business to the point he could eventually afford a horse and buggy, could cover more ground, and um, eventually had a, his own shop. My grandfather graduated from the University of Buffalo Law School in 1932 and practiced law for seven years or so, but then realized nobody had any money to pay attorneys after the Great Depression. So he ended up joining his dad in business and they continued to, to build it out. Initially, they were a rag recycler, uh, and became the largest rag recycler in all of New York State. Um, but after World War II, when they invented synthetic rags, uh, rag recycling dropped off a cliff. It was, uh, really an economic challenge and he had to switch gears and started to focus on metals. Buffalo had six steel mills at that time, uh, very crowded, uh, ferrous landscape. Probably 30 or more scrapper cyclers in, um, the Buffalo area. So my grandfather, as he surveyed that, decided to go into the non ferrous side of the business, thought there might be a little more of a niche or opportunity. And at first we were processing aluminum, and then we switched gears to copper. My dad joined in 1970, as he came back from Vietnam, he was a pilot, uh, Air Force pilot, and his original thinking was he wasn't going to come into business. He was going to become a commercial airline pilot. But that was everybody's thinking coming back from Vietnam. That was flying airplanes. So, um, he ended up joining his dad in business and he parlayed his love of flying into, um, a really good combination for our business. That was incredibly helpful in that he convinced his dad to invest in an airplane and we could go out and about see customers and suppliers all over North America and be back, you know, in the next day to manage the business. So, you know, It became a really important tool because, unfortunately, in Western New York, we saw a significant decline of manufacturing is true throughout North America. But, um, certainly in the Western New York area, they, they went, uh, Southeast, Southwest, or back to Canada, as the case were. So, we decided to keep this as our home base and hub, but had to go far and wide to be able to source scrap and sell scrap. And, I joined in 1985, after graduating college. Actually, it was an interesting story in that I was supposed to, my dad had it arranged, I was going to go to New York City and work for a literally world famous copper broker, a guy named Harold Sachs, and Harold was over in London making a speech about three months before I was to go and work with him in New York City. And unfortunately, he, uh, went out for a run, killed over and, and died of a heart attack. So that was the end of my outside work experience, and rather, I graduated college on a Saturday and started working on Monday in, in Manitoba. Um, but I decided to get involved in other activities, both industry related and outside the industry. And within the industry, I started as a young man, uh, get active in our, at that time, ISIS and N. A. R. R. Y. chapters. Which eventually became ISRI and now of course is RIMA. Um, so that was my early introduction to the trade association world. And it's been very helpful for me. I'm a real believer in being involved in, in trade associations. Um, at this point, RIMA and Cary and we switched gears, as I mentioned, to copper. So for the last 45 years or so, we've been focusing on copper as our primary commodity. And. We have operations in Buffalo still to this day, as well as St. Louis, Missouri, since the early 1980s. So we've had those two operations and then some joint venture activities as well. Ryan, I mean, you guys have been doing this for so long. Um, you know, the reason why I invited you on here and, and we bumped you forward this episode is because. Um, you do a lot of cross border work with Canada. There's a lot of business. Um, I know you're involved in the association carrier association as well. So we thought it would be great to talk us through, if you could kind of talk us through what's going on with the tariffs at the moment, with obviously the Canadian tariffs and Mexican as well, but how are these new tariffs impacting the Canadian scrap metal companies and also the U S companies? You know, what are you actually seeing out there at the moment? So, uh, actually, just before I jump into that, I just want to say that, uh, I am the current Cary Chairman, uh, I was put in place at the last convention, uh, last June, and it was fascinating timing in that, at that point, we had hired a, a brand new President and CEO, and we, uh, introduced him to all the members at the convention, um, subsequent to that, he ended up leaving the Trade Association and went back to the, what he claimed was the only opportunity that he would take Uh, to leave us because he was really off to a great start and enjoying it. Well, that departure led to a tremendous opportunity for us as CARI, the Canadian Association of Recycling Industries, in that we hired Jacqueline Lotzkar. Jacqueline is a well known industry professional from British Columbia, very active in REMA, and they sold their family business, which was 112 years. in operation, and, um, so an opportunity presented where we could bring her in as the next president and CEO. Her first day of work was the very first day in February, and that's when this all started. Over that weekend, leading into her first day, is when President Trump surprised us all with this announcement of tariffs. And the entire weekend was spent for my company, but for everybody, trying to figure this out. And we literally had to go through purchase contracts as we source a fair amount of material from canada And we sell back finished goods into canada too and trying to understand the impact and what this might do So we spent the entire weekend preparing to cancel contracts or put them in abeyance And then 24 hours later, it was reversed So it was a mad scramble then to put everything back on at that point. It was a one month delay and um, I I teased because I was the REMA chairman from 2018 through 2020, and I'm now the Cary chairman, as I mentioned. And in the time since February, uh, 3rd till now, I've received more emails and phone calls from members than I did my entire two years as, as the REMA chair. Um, it has been a mad scramble for everybody and the Canadian recyclers and the U. S. recyclers are all impacted. It is such a close working relationship in terms of both supply and sale of recyclables that cross the border in both directions that it has a significant impact on, on everybody involved and especially in particular, um, the people along the border from a U. S. perspective and really throughout Canada. Canada needs the U. S. as a market for sure and it represents an opportunity to sell their collected recyclables. Either for further processing or direct melting and, and all of that happens. Um, and the same thing for the US, uh, people we're, we're sourcing from Canada. It's an incredibly important source for my company, but for anybody along the entire, uh, border between the US and Canada. So it's been incredibly stressful for all involved and, uh, is still ongoing and still in flux. Brian, I am, I, I had my own metal recycling business when I was in New Zealand. When we went through COVID lockdowns, and I don't know if you read or heard about how bad New Zealand was for a time, um, you know, one case in the whole country and they shut down the whole country, um, multiple times this happened over the period. And when you were in lockdown, we weren't allowed out our houses. It was very stressful. And we had businesses to run. Um, the hardest part was the not knowing it was kind of how long will this go for? Um, and that made it really difficult because. I always look at, um, you know, difficult situations. There's an opportunity somewhere. I go, I'm constantly going, okay, this works. Now I know the parameters. I know the game I'm playing. I'm going to look for the opportunity. I did that when I was in South Africa, when, um, the regulations came in there for the company. And, and I did that as well at certain times when we launched the waste company in New Zealand. But it's, it's the unknown. It's the, well, what happens next? I can't have a strategy. If I don't know if there is going to be a tariff or not have a tariff, how people dealing with that, like, I mean, that's really stressful. So as you just stated, most recyclers are incredibly entrepreneurial and gutsy and, uh, really consider what the facts are in front of them. And to your point, that's exactly what they do. There's gotta be an opportunity here. And they strategically step back and think about how, what's the impact on my business and what are those underlying opportunities You know, maybe this whole time they were there, but this situation forces us to step back and really think about it. The problem is, as you also stated, is just the uncertainty. It is very difficult to plan an approach, a response to this with the on again, off again nature of this and the political back and forth between U. S. and Canada and Mexico and the U. S. And, um, it just, it feels incredibly uncertain. So it's difficult to plan in the face of that. You could have a, a great response, a well thought out response, and that could include, you know, putting a warehouse for us, putting a warehouse in Canada so that we can source Canadian goods, process it there, and send it to our Canadian customers. That might sound like a, a perfectly appropriate response, but what does that mean? Does that mean that we buy a building or lease a building for a year? And, and two weeks from now, the situation's over and, you know, is that a good thing, bad thing? Um, what are the impacts? And so it's, it's, and I think everybody's in that exact same boat. You know, what is my response, short term and long term? And there are some things coming out of this for sure that, that will, I think, make us better and stronger going forward on both sides of the border. As we consider, you always hear about it, uh, upstream from us that they consider their supply chain. And they need our recyclables to melt materials and make, manufacture new goods, so we're part of the supply chain. Well, this is, this, uh, current situation is forcing us to consider our supply chains as well, and not just know that we can, you know, pick up the phone and, and call somebody or, or purchase it tomorrow. We need to give some thought to our supply chains, both supply side and, and customers, and what the impact will be. What I mean, you gave a great example of, you know, do you set up a warehouse on the other side of the border? Um, but when you say process that material, it's not as simple as just, um, cleaning it up. You don't just clean it up and, and, and move it on. So there's a, there's a large capital. A requirement for you to do something like it as you say to then have the tariffs disappear And then all of a sudden that just sits there and you can say it might not make sense But that'll be hindsight's the only way you'll know that what have you actually seen some people do like I can tell you that I received calls from My good friends at a ward who make the tilters in new zealand And they're getting a huge amount of requests for quotes from Canada right now, because what was crossing the border now might be looking for new homes and in order to pack containers, you know, you, you might want to use a tilter, probably will be using a tilter. And a lot of them were designed without it because they could just stick it on the track, you know, rally and get rid of it. We've had people contacting us and get buddy because, um, now you've got people that didn't have an export market. And Buddy brings you an immediate, you know, ecosystem of trust with vetted buyers. So we're having that. What are you seeing some reactions to this and how people are thinking out the box? So in my case, specifically my company, Manitoba, we're having conversations with trusted, uh, respected friends in the industry that are in Canada that are sourcing, uh, selling to us that we're buying from. And we're having these conversations that might say, Hey, instead of me crossing the border with material, can I package it for your clients that are here in Canada, or elsewhere, Europe, around the world, wherever it happens to be. And so those are the conversations that are taking place now. And this is really where the relationships matter, where the trust, of course, is first piece of this puzzle, because. All of a sudden, if the tariffs are removed and you've gone down this road, you've got to have somebody that you trust that won't violate them, you know, go after your clients if you were to engage in this. So it's, uh, it's kind of early stages, but that's, that's the kind of conversations we're having now. How can I help you? How can I help us? And it might be that, that we give product to somebody that they've established as a client and they give us product at a client in Canada. as a temporary solution while we struggle through this. So, that's an example. I think the biggest thing right now is really the value of the trade associations. And that's both REMA and CARI here in North America. They're both working very collaboratively, um, which is the first part of this. REMA, of course, is a much bigger organization representing more than 1, 600 members. CARI represents more than 200 members throughout Canada. And, uh, one beautiful thing about Jacqueline coming in as our President and CEO of Cary is that she's got a well established and very strong relationship with RIMA, and that's benefiting our Cary membership. Um, so that collaborative relationship and approach is helpful in terms of disseminating the information, understanding the impact within Canada as well as the U. S. And, um, today being a member of the trade associations is more important, I think, than ever. It's, it's really It's, it's your go to resource and representing the interests of members. And it's a critical feature that we all as individual operators really need to understand that the power of working together through a trade association is, is valuable and helpful. Yeah. I mean, it's quite interesting when I speak to people about, um, you know, joining Rima and likewise carry, um, often it's, well, I really go to the events or, or I just pay a slight extra for the events and it's all about the. You know, when, if you utilize the value that comes out of these associations properly and you don't think it's only about the events, there is a huge benefit for you. But it's because people, a lot of people have their blinkers on and think, well, all Rima or carriers is a couple of events a year. There is so much more value and we don't have to go into all of it today. We want to talk more about the tariffs, but, but really, I mean, I'm a huge proponent of joining a local association and getting involved and getting the value from it as well. Don't just assume, oh, well, just about go to the meetings, log into the website, get that data that you need, uh, communicate, Reema that's telling me that, uh, you know, the tariffs are off and, you know, the day before the tariffs are on, so it's a really good point. What's, um, what do you think the long term effects can be for the industry, um, with this yo yo, I guess, on off, on off? Do you think there'll be some sort of long term effect for everybody? Other than post traumatic stress disorder in the United States. Right, exactly. Um, I do think there'll be some long term effects that come from this. It is clear that, that in the case of President Trump, he is focused on the U. S., of course. Um, going back to his platform of make the U. S. great again. Um, and really, that's, I think, what this is all about. You know, at the end of the day, he wants to build a stronger infrastructure here. That includes everything from beginning to end of the recycling process, as well as the manufacturing supply chain. I think this is going on around the world, by the way. China is in the same exact boat. They're trying to have their recycling industry mature and be able to process finished goods so that they can consume it there, manufacture products, generate a byproduct or a long term scrap product through consumers, and then back in the chain. So I do think we will see a, uh, reduction of the bureaucracy and the regulations potentially associated with building a more robust U. S. economy focused on manufacturing. I think the Canadians will have to think long and hard about that exact approach, too, because, um, again, they've got to support the things that they're currently importing. And or exporting and create opportunities for those to be handled within their own country So I think a lot of this is about supply chain and maximizing the impacts. There's also carbon footprint and geopolitical ramifications to this because if we're relying on product coming in from china And it takes you know a month to get here or whatever it is Rather if we can build it consume it process it and put it back into Finished form here and North America call it. Um, That's an uh, uh, big advantage and I think that will be an outcome as we continue to drive towards that. Um, What's interesting is if you study history and you look at any sort of um periods of war You'll often find prediction, protectionist policies coming in place when people want to keep their raw materials. They want to, you know, I totally get the make America great again. That makes so much sense. I get it. But then also looking at like, well, you know, how far are we away from some sort of wall where we actually all need to be, you know, create self sufficient, I guess, or self supporting. Um, and that's just what it feels like to me. I think that in 20 years time, when we started in the history books. You might find that, um, this was all a build up to something much bigger. I 100 percent agree with you. And by the way, this policy creates a real, um, conflict with recyclers in general because the, the longstanding mantra that is critical for our industry to be successful is free and fair trade. And that means trading with any partner around the world that's legitimate, handling their business the right way, et cetera, et cetera. But we need markets for our goods. Um, about one third of all the goods. Produce currently in the U. S. go overseas to consumers because it's better suited. And that's the whole thing about this tariff issue. It's not like recyclables are being dumped in our country. These are world traded commodities and they trade at market value. There is no margin to support dumping. So these are all legitimately traded recyclables at fair market. Um, and that's true throughout the world. And, and so we need consumers, we need options. And so recyclers, both in the U. S. and Canada, argue all the time for free and fair trade. It's, that hasn't gone away. It's more challenging in the current environment, especially with the current administration in the U. S., because there's protectionist policies, exactly as you stated. And, uh, that's going to create some challenges, because until and unless there are consumers to support all of the recyclables, In our country, hopefully it's throughout North America, but, but minimally in our country, uh, it's going to be problematic. Um, where's the material going to go? There's only so many consumers. Yeah, absolutely. There still will be, um, material exporting. I think the other week when we were speaking to Amy Hinton, she was saying 25 percent of all recycled metal is exported out of the country, and she expects that'll maybe change by about 5 percent to something closer to 80%. Through all of this, it still leaves a huge amount of volume. And they will still need to, to leave the country, of course, for sure. What do you, um, what have you seen happening on pricing? Because you're so close to both sides, and let's talk both sides. What have you seen happening to pricing? And what do you think in the near future we will see? So, in the case of recyclables crossing the border, um, as this, these windows open and close, we really haven't seen a lot of change relative to the, um, the commodity indication, meaning, Uh, the COMEX spread on, on copper, which I can speak most knowledgeably about, hasn't really changed all that much. Uh, what has changed is the underlying commodity value. So in the case of copper, as tariffs are in place, the COMEX is, is rising fast and sharply. Um, and then as the tariff talk settles down or is taken off the table, we start to see a little bit of a decline. So that's what we're trading off that indice. But we're not seeing a lot of change in the spread so far. Um, We have seen some widening, particularly in the case of number 2 copper, as a result of this, this whole tariff thing. Because if number 2 can't be exported, either because of export controls, or because of tariffs, and, and countermeasures taken by foreign governments in retaliation, namely China, if that tariff is in place. That is going to create a, a significant widening of the COMEX spread. And so we are seeing that number too. We're not seeing it quite as much in the higher grades that can be consumed. There is no pass through of tariff. I mean, that's just, you know, that's, it's not going to happen. Uh, we're not in a business that, that can pass that along as to say, Hey, we had to pay a 25 percent tariff to attract the goods. And therefore our customers are, that's, that's not going to happen. Um, it is, uh, eliminating trade when tariffs are in place. Unfortunately, it just can't cross. Um, and then when it comes back on, it's, it's opening up again. And so we're in this on again, off again mode. I haven't really seen a, a direct impact in terms of the, the spread buying, but rather the underlying COMEX rising and falling. But what about and I know this isn't necessarily something you focus on all the time But do you have a lot of relations across the border? what what about on the steel and aluminum side because surely, um the fact that we're not um, You know bringing cheap coils and finished goods into the country. There is a much greater demand We're seeing the prices for scrap increasing day to day for aluminum and steel Um, there has been talk a little bit about copper joining in on the tariffs as well internationally So I mean, maybe you can talk about that, but on the other nonferrous and the other steel grades. Well, I, I wonder, uh, I, I understand that's the short term reaction is that, that the pricing complex is moving up in steel, aluminum, copper, and, and as, as with these tariffs are threatened and, and put in place. In the case of steel and aluminum, uh, this Section 232 program is not related to tariffs, meaning, well, meaning it's a separate bucket of tariffs. And that has fed in place because President Trump is, is adamant about not being dumped on, or what he views as dumped on, and he wants that, those goods produced in, in the U. S. Um, I wonder if Canada loses the ability to send aluminum and steel coils into the U. S. or other shapes, finished good shapes, if that eventually will depress the market in Canada. Because you would think they don't need as much if they're not selling as much. I think that's going to be the impact of that if those 232 tariffs stay in place. Right now, the current tariffs that are on again, off again, is only a further hit against that. Although the short term reaction is markets up, I think that the longer term impact, if this comes to be and is a long term, I do think there'll be a depression of prices because again, there's only so many consumers in Canada, those, those materials, yes, they can be exported out of Canada to various countries other than the U. S., but that's a long freight and You know, financial risk, et cetera, et cetera, all the things that Buddy works to mitigate. Um, those are going to be tested and probably become much more important. Uh, I think you're well positioned in terms of Buddy to, to provide a real good service to both the U. S. recyclers as well as Canadian. I think that's going to become more important. Yeah. Brian, what's quite interesting there is in the phone calls that I had in the beginning of the week, you know, there's a few Canadians already sending on Buddy, um, obviously from the two far coasts. Um, And the feedback I was getting on some new commodities coming up for sale were, oh, I can't accept that price on export, even though it was a fantastic export price because just across the border, they're paying huge because of the 2, 3 2 that's come in place. So this was an aluminum grade. The aluminum price domestically in the US is, is absolutely flying. And there's such a demand right now for that material that it's kind of like the Canadians on the other side of the border. I'll go, well, I still want. Um, I want that price, right? And it's like, well, you know, I also want that price, but so do all people around the world want the American price right now. I've heard, I've heard of people in Dubai and I've heard of people in India currently flying out to the U S to see if it's worthwhile bringing scrap into the country. So people are trying to bring in shred right now of the country because it's so appealing. But if you've had yourself cut off from a price that's now flying, I mean, obviously it's all played its part, right? There's a reason why it's fine, but. A lot of them in the beginning of this week were not taking sales on export because of what they could see across the border. You must be seeing. Oh, uh, uh, yes, we are for sure. And I think these are the unintended consequences of some of the Trump policy, meaning it, the need hasn't gone away. We still need the steel coils, the aluminum coils. Um, we certainly need the recyclable copper. And finished goods copper, by the way, to a lot of primary metal in the form of copper cathode and copper rod comes from Canada into the US and feeds manufacturers throughout. So, um, that's really changed the dynamics in the landscape. But, um, yeah, that so far those tariffs are being absorbed and able to be passed through and that increase all of our costs are operating costs and eventually it hits all of us and is really a form of taxation. Um, so I think, I think the Trump administration is seeing some of the impact of that in the form of the equity markets going down and hearing about, you know, the manufacturers, hearing from the automakers. We still need those inputs. And so, yes, you're right, scrap, um, as long as it can trade across the border without the extra tariff, um, if it can be absorbed under the 232 with finished goods coming across, then that's, that's advantageous pricing. Yes. Have you, and you guys have received more phone calls, um, as you said in the last few weeks than you had in like four or five years, have you heard of any sort of like resilience coming through from certain people? I know across the board, these guys are, people are pretty resilient, but is there anything in particular that stands out for you? Yeah, I think from a capital perspective, there'll be opportunities for equipment manufacturing companies because I think the trade is going to have to look at adding value, um, with some of the, uh, Chinese policy that they need clean streams to feed instead of sending low grade insulated or insulated copper wire to processors in the U. S. that are chopping, I think people are going to look at as an example of putting in chopping equipment themselves to make a finished product that's ready to melt to give them more options, to give them export options, whether it be again to China or other consuming facilities. Um, so I think there will be some opportunities and I'm starting to hear. Inklings of that. And that is. That's a potential threat to the U. S. recyclers that buy those raw materials that add value through processing. Um, so that's one example of a resilient approach to this and, and long term strategic thinking about giving themselves options to add value to this, to the recyclable. It reminds me of kind of like when we first started building Buddy. One of the main things was I always spoke about that I had a policy whenever I sold something, I'll throw it to five different people. And never becoming beholdens on one buyer because as soon as something happens and all of a sudden you can't solve that one buyer anymore You it affects your business something can happen to somebody else which immediately affects your business And you can't run a business in that way that you'll be holding to somebody else's performance or relationship. So, um It's quite interesting. You say there's a lot of people out there that no doubt we're sending in all their cable Into the U S two large granulators that we're taking, you know, and processing it. And now it's the, hold on, I can't be reliant on that anymore. It's the same as I've got a guy in Houston who bought a tilter that he hasn't yet used. He bought it from a ward. He hasn't used it, but he has the ability at any time. If something goes wrong with his domestic buyer, he can immediately stick the material on export. And that's the same. I think we'll probably be seen by the Canadians now is. Get yourself a tilter, make sure that you're either on the buddy platform. We have the ability to open up markets so that if I can't sell to my usual buyer in the U S I can immediately still bring in the money, still have the cashflow because really what's going to hurt people, I think, you know, be sum it all up, it's going to be cashflow because you're going to hold material now. And because you're going to wait, hopefully the tariff drops, hopefully, you know, something happens, something changes. And if. And if it doesn't, you're sitting on that stock and you're buying every day with no sense. Yeah, it's, it's twofold. Uh, so in the case of my company, again, uh, when these windows open and the tariffs are lifted, we go crazy bringing everything in. And so in the past, you'd spread it out, of course, and manage your cashflow. Now we have to front load everything to make sure that we get the product in to satisfy our customers. So. Um, yeah, sure. Right. It's cashflow at both ends, the supplier as, as well as, uh, the company consuming it. So, um, can you think of anybody that you've spoken to on one of these phone calls that's having a particular hard time and you don't have to obviously mention any names, but is there something that just like, you know, this guy was beholden to somebody and now his whole business is in trouble? Yeah. So, um, I did speak with somebody yesterday in, uh, in Eastern Ontario and, um, they were telling me that their business was built a hundred percent to sell into the U. S. and, uh, they are scrambling to try to figure this out because again, unfortunately they, they, and the reason they were doing that is because they're competing with all the recyclers around them. And so by selling to the U. S. they can create an opportunity for themselves. They're not. Selling to their competitors or selling to, you know, um, alternative markets. If the U. S. is no longer an option, uh, they have to figure out what to do with the material and they're, they're really scrambling and potentially at risk. I think that's the thing I'm hearing about on both sides of the border because, um, you know, that it's, it's probably going to lead to layoffs if this is pervasive and, and ends up sticking in place. Um, it's probably going to lead to layoffs because there's going to be a reduction in consumption as well as, as supply. And so it inevitably is going to affect our workforces. And, and, and that's a, when you start talking about the very, um, survival of these businesses, that's, that's when it gets concerning for sure. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, I remember, just remember COVID so well, and it's just, that's when it gets really concerning when you have the layoffs, you know, businesses shutting down, um, I mean, there'll be people sitting on, on large amount of stock. Which to me, when I first arrived in the country in the U S I was shocked to see how much stock certain companies actually sits on it at any time. Um, I hope the Canadians weren't necessarily doing the same as what I've seen in the U S I remember having George Adams on the show, you know, and he has a rule about shipping to the floor in all of his yards and almost on a monthly basis. But I would travel the U S and see guys sitting on tens of thousands of tons of, um, various materials. So if you were sitting on that in Canada at the moment. I think, I think that becomes extremely hard. What are they doing on the buy side? Because you, it's an unknown. I don't want to hold expensive stock and have the tariffs come back into play. So are you finding that Canadians have dropped the buy price drastically? I really don't think they can do that at the moment if they want to attract the goods. There's still enough competition within Canada. There's some, of course, very large players that cover a large, uh, geographic footprint within Canada. And I think the regional, uh, And smaller operators have really no choice if they want to attract goods They're going to have to to play in that that game because the large companies still can Um export and and do so and have markets More readily available to them. So they're still going to be buying out there Um, it may create opportunity for them to reduce their their buy price, but I don't think that's happened yet One of the reasons is because, again, we don't, with this on again, off again approach and the way this is going down, um, it creates so much uncertainty and, and so I don't think the market's really reacted to that yet. If it becomes long term and it's clear that, you know, six months or six years of this, then people will start to take different approaches to this. But with the on again, off again approach, um, we're in the market every day, everybody is, um, it's maybe had us go further and wider. Um, where we were sourcing from Canada, we're starting to have to penetrate deeper and further into the U. S. Um, to source the materials. And, um, that, that translates to higher costs because of freight. But their underlying commodity is basically the same spread, same opportunity. Um, I, I don't see a reduction in buy side prices to answer your questions or question them. Before we end, and this has been super informative, um, and this is what I expected when I, when I called you that it would be, you know, add this amount of value and true life stories of what's actually going on out there. So that's been excellent, but before you get to run. I need to ask you a couple of quickfire questions. Um, just so we all get to know you better Um, oh and also by the way, um, you'll be on the panel next week at atlantic city Where we'll actually be talking about tariffs. I'll be moderating and we'll be talking about tariffs. So if you are booked to come to Atlantic city, that's going to be fun and very informative. It's a great panel. Um, if you aren't yet booked, um, you should be booking and making sure, um, you'll be attending the event because we're going to have Mr. Brian shine up there on stage and, uh, talking us through, um, you know, what's going on in the market and where the opportunities are in more detail. Hopefully we know more in a week. We may or may not, we'll see. But, um, You're right in that I, even if you're not a border city sourcing from Canada or selling to Canada, we're all impacted by these, the change of market conditions. And if, if this closes down, uh, there's not a dealer in the U S or in Canada that won't be impacted. Yeah. So I think we all need to understand that sometimes we tend to think, well, I don't buy from Canada. I don't sell to Canada. I don't care what happens there. It does impact all of us the ability to trade freely or not impact all of us. So, yeah, thank you. And I'm looking forward to the panel. So Brian, um, favorite TV show or movie? Uh, it's probably a standard answer, uh, that maybe has been given to you before, but I really enjoyed the series breaking bad. I just found it to be fun and enjoyable and kind of an escape from. My reality of day to day for sure. Has anybody said that you look like the guy from Breaking Bad? Oh, I haven't heard that, but Just from the video I'm looking at right now. That's funny. Favorite place to visit? I would have to answer Portugal, only because I went there with my wife and another couple, and we absolutely loved it. We had such a great experience in Portugal. I've been to many places, I've been really fortunate. It's a Rima through carry to travel the world and representing the recycling industry and so all over the world. I, I would say most recently, I, I really enjoyed Portugal. Fun, fun place to visit. So Portugal, the food is my favorite food. Portuguese favorite is by far my favorite in certain parts of the world. I am famous for my per Perry sauce. And by certain parts, I mean love it. My home, my home that I live in, that certain part of the world. I'm famous with my children for my peri per sauce. Um, I love it. Portuguese food for me is, is number one. Absolutely. Um, yes. Brian, have you got a favorite book? I do. I, and, and this is kind of funny in that I'm from Buffalo, but uh, my favorite book that I, most impactful book, I should say, is a book called Flight of the Buffalo. And it's a, if anybody hasn't read it, I really strongly recommend it. It's exactly how, how you are, uh, Stuart, in terms of seeing opportunities, um, working with the team. And and really adjusting accordingly. So the biggest takeaway from reading that book for me was the emphasis on quality. It's a it's a book written by James Belasco, who is a famous business author, but he collaborates with an operator of the business that was in sausage making. And so when I read this book in the late 90s, it set off a precursor to Manitoba Corporation becoming ISO certified. Before that, you know, quality and quality control, it was just scrap, uh, and whatever, you know, we do the best we could, we'd send it to our customer, once in a while there'd be a reject. Well, I started as a result of reading this book, digging into it and understanding the impact to our business and saying, it's only X percent of our sales, but Y percent of our bottom line. And if we can make impact here. And so it really created a team approach to address the issue. And as I say, it was a precursor to us becoming ISO certified all the way back in 2003. So we've been ISO certified for more than 20 years. And it's a differentiator, understanding the impact of poor quality on your operation and the expense associated with shipping a product out and disappointing a customer that's counting on that. Um, they're relying on the trade. And so. It's a real, anyway, it was a great book. It talks about teams getting out front and not accepting the status quo and just saying, that's the business we're in, but doing better. And so I loved Flight of the Buckleup. Yeah. I just wrote that down. I'm definitely going to go and get it. Hopefully, hopefully read it by the time I see you in Atlantic City. Sounds good. Um, finally, because everybody, every good scrappy has one. Uh, have you got a favorite quote? I do. Um, uh, I, I like the quote, luck is when preparedness meets opportunity. And, um, I know you're a strategic thinker and that's really what allows us the opportunity to continue developing a business. My great grandfather, grandfather, my dad, we all adjust to things that are in front of us. So within our family, we've tried best possible to be strategic. We're not off the charts at it. We work at it. Um, but we rely on, on the people around us, the team that we've built and, and, and people outside. And that's why we are involved in our industry trade associations. We get smart by learning from others. And one of the things I love about the trade association activities, Carrie and Rima, is that people share, they're willing to sit down and talk to you and mentor you and guide you. And we learned so much from being in that environment. These are passionate, caring. Individuals and members of those trade associations and it's a great fertile learning ground. And so yeah I'm a strong believer in luck just doesn't happen You have to to be working towards something and be prepared when the opportunity comes and so that's my that's my yeah I love it. You're speaking my language Brian, this was amazing. so much for being on born scrappy This has been lots of fun. Oh, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to share. See you next week, brian Okay, so good. Bye. Bye
