S3E15: Navigating freight with Sealink International's Zohra Shroff

In this episode I chat to Zohra Shroff, Director of Operations at Sealink International.

Zohra has been in the freight game for 20 years and let's just say she knows a thing or two!

In today's episode, we talk about:

👉  Strategies to reduce shipping costs  
👉 Freight forwarders vs going direct 
👉 Common shipping mistakes
👉 Freight outlook for 2025
👉 And much more!

Listen to the full episode. Wherever you stream your podcasts.

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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.


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Transcript

STU: 0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's Freight Masterclass, I chat with Zohra Shroff. Zohra is the Director of Operations at Sealink, the largest recycled metal freight forwarder in the U. S. Whether it's port strikes, regulatory changes, or incoming tariffs, the shipping world is in turmoil, and it's making things extra tough for metal recyclers. In today's episode, we talk about strategies to reduce the shipping costs, going direct versus using a freight forwarder, the freight outlook for 2025, common shipping mistakes, and so much more. So let's get into the masterclass with Zohreh, but first, intro. Mhm.

1:12

Hi, Zara. How are you? Hi, Stuart Wemble. How are you? Yeah, I'm very good. Thank you. I'm excited to. Yeah, you're most welcome. I'm, I'm excited to get involved in this, um, masterclass on shipping, because I think anybody in metal recycling right now, anywhere in the world knows that this is a hot topic, right? Yes, of course it is. It is going crazy. The markets are, you know, going up and down every day and uh, like, like I say, it's always fun to be in shipping because you're always riding the wave There is nothing that's going stagnant, you know, so that's how it goes. Yeah. Look, I've been doing this for 27 odd years. And there's always really tough times. I mean, COVID was horrific, obviously, but these currently are some really, really tough seas to manage right now. Right? Yes. And I believe that this time is, is a little bit more hectic than COVID was. I mean, COVID was very difficult for all of us. And of course there were a lot of opportunities for all of us because At the start of COVID, everybody thought that who's going to do any shipping, right? Who, who knows supply chain, what are these folks, right? And then the news flashes on like all the ports, you know, having 65 vessels, you know, congested and not able to birth and stuff. But of course, what we saw in COVID is very different than what we are seeing now. Now, the pressures I want to say are more. Then it was in COVID because everybody knew, Oh, this is COVID because of COVID. This is all happening, but now this is just an industry shift. I want to say, or the way the shipping has been done, um, you know, the lot of political things that are happening that are affecting our shipping lot of economical things that are happening that are also affecting the shipping industry worldwide. You know, not only in the U S. But everywhere else, so it's a little bit different than COVID, but I feel like the effects are same as COVID for right now, if you can say that. Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty scary. Let's, let's take a step back quickly. Give a, give us all a, um, a quick rundown on, I guess, the pros and cons of freight forwarders versus going direct, you know, and an overview of I guess shipping works as a whole. A lot of our listeners will sell on an FAS basis. They won't necessarily handle the shipping. So just give us a background and also what C Link does, I guess, in the whole, in the whole makeup of things. Okay. Okay. Definitely. So going direct or going with a 3PL or an NVO, um, has its, of course it's pros and cons, right? If you are a direct shipper, you have the control of your shipment. You have control of your pricing. You can exactly plan and see who you want to use, how you want to use, what is going to be your shipping cost. Like you said, you can make your you know, either FAS or CNF, whatever works for you price wise, right? When it comes to using a 3PL or a forwarder, the only advantage or the most effective advantage you have is you have a variety of carriers. At using a direct, you might be able to get like maybe one or two carriers who would be willing to work with BCOs or direct shippers. And working with the forwarder always gives you an opportunity to Open up more carriers to open up more routes for your business. Sometimes even freight forwarders or NBOs will give you options or opportunities to, you know, read out your shipments, depending on what kind of blank sailings are coming and what kind of vessel changes are coming in, what kind of alliance changes are happening in the industry. So managing between, uh, direct and freight forwarding is of course, business dependent, but if you have, or if you go through a freight forwarder, like C Link, who specializes in metal scrap, I think you would just always have a better, uh, A better knowledge of the industry, the better you will have more access to carriers. And then of course, we can even help you with your domestic needs, international needs, customs, and all of that as well. So I feel like it depends on the business, but of course, having a forwarder will give you an extra leverage to do a little bit more. Which might be a little difficult on your own. Yeah, I think there's, there's definitely pros and cons. Um, I always, um, went direct for a very long time, but depending on the size of your shipping team, right? I mean, in South Africa, we had, I think it was stage, there were six people who ran our shipping department. So, um, if you don't have. Access to a large shipping team. There's a lot to be said with going with somebody that can de risk everything, manage it all, um, find the opportune prices or constantly be looking for the best opportunities to get you the best rates. So, um, very much business dependent, but, um, you guys play a massive role and I've obviously got a huge amount of respect for Shizaad and the whole team at Sealing. So run us through a little bit more information, which could help us. So what I'm looking for is, um. What are the all in costs? We often see, you know, a freight forwarder will give you a price and this will be all inclusive, but then there will be other costs, which really you should have managed better. So just for understanding for everybody, what are the all in costs? What makes up these costs? And what are the ways that we can manage? I'll cost generally better. Okay. So basically, when we would quote out a price, it would include your basic ocean freight. It would include your fuel cost. Some of the lines will add in a destination fee, which, you know, you can either be collect or prepaid. So that would be your basic price. Now, if you opt out to do like a door to door shipment, then trucking would come into play. A live drop and pick would come into play. Just depending on how your warehouse will want us to do this trucking for you. You would also have some accessorial charges like. Chassis, depending on which line do you use, if you use an MSC versus a Mars, then, you know, you know, with MSC, you have four days free chassis with Mars, you have to pay an additional 25, 35 bucks on the chassis. So just depending on what type of shipping are you guys, you know, wanting to do the freight cost will change, but a basic ocean freight that would consider your fuel and your basic ocean cost. And then if you want to add in your drage, then you would have. Trucking cost. And then, of course, some accessorial charges that you would want. We at Sealink also encourage all our shippers to get insurance, especially with what we are seeing around happening nowadays with delays, blank sailings, the unfortunate Baltimore Bridge episode that happened earlier this year. So we always encourage our shippers to get insurance as well. Uh, just because to manage these risk better, you know, so that would consider your all in cost in regards to like a big picture, right? But if you just talk about freight, then you just have these three options for freight. Okay, so when it comes to insurance. A lot of people, um, get trade insurance and they insure, um, the actual trade value against their buyers. Yes. You're talking about shipping insurance. Yes. I'm talking about shipping insurance, which is, uh, directly coming from your commercial invoice value. So if you send us your commercial invoice value, we send it to the broker and then they'll 50 cents, 80 cents, depending on the freight value. And then we encourage you to buy that insurance just because. I feel insurance has played such an important role in the last couple of years, especially after COVID because so many, uh, letters of credits that were, you know, done, and because of these delays or blank ceilings or transshipment congestions, these LCs were not able to get fulfilled at the time for the bank. They didn't have like, sometimes when you prepare an LC, they'll give you like a month or two up and down, depending on, uh, the situation. Where it's coming from, but a lot of banks have now taken that ability away. So if you get this insurance, at least you can tell the bank, Hey, it's insured. And you know, my LC will be good for when my shipment reaches even like 15 days later or 40 days later, whatever the timeframe would be. You know, what practices have you seen metal recyclers do that we could all learn from? You know, there's obviously, you've got demurrage costs, which we see every single day. So you spoke about the all in costs, but what are the things that are really hitting us after the fact that we could control better, or you might just say a lot of it's out of our control? Um, actually, a lot of, uh, demurrage or detention, whichever we talk about, right, detention is outside and demurrage is inside the port. Now, they directly come across a charge that no one wants to see. Okay. And unfortunately, it is getting passed along to the shipper. Right? Because the ports are not willing to take any responsibility. The lines will come back and say, Hey, you know what? We have a contract with the port and the port is making these adjustments. So we can't do much, right? So when I, when I talk about the marriage, the main thing that causes this demurrage is because of vessel delays, right? You've gotten in a date and you have returned according to that date, according to the terminal. And, Something happens and that vessel is delayed or that there is a birthing issue or there is a draft restriction. So that vessel is not able to come in. Your container has been sitting on the port many times. If you can prove to the lines and to the terminals. Hey, these are the dates we followed. And this is what we did. So we should not be liable for your demurrage. That's where I feel like sometimes the forwarders come into play, because, you know, we are doing this day in and day out. We exactly know how to send in these disputes. And I want to say, like, with us, we have a 95 percent win in disputes when it comes to these kind of cases. Don't get me wrong. There are a lot of times where. Truckers, you know, because they are turning around the empties and trying to like, you know, get a rotation done, especially with live loads, they are getting in containers earlier. And when that happens, it's out of our control because, you know, there was a date and we didn't abide to it. So those things are out of our control. But in the last, I want to say a couple of years, has been a Big thing because of these blank ceilings because of vessel delays, and we have been able to, you know, get waivers on a lot of demurrage. But I will not say that it is at 100 percent yet, because there are things that are happening, you know, which are trucker caused or supplier caused, you know, they loaded early and they said, Hey, I don't have space in my yard, take it and return it, you know, so those things also come into play and detention Also the same. It's a victim of the same situation that the vessel is delayed. So the ERD got adjusted. So you did pull a container within four days or five days, whatever free time you have with the line, but that ERD got adjusted. So now you can't return for six days and then you have a bill and then you have to go back and say, Hey, this was my date and this is how I paid. But again, like you have to know the process to dispute these correctly, or else the line is, you know, they are just going to bill it because they see that, Hey, it was out for six days. They're not matching, or they're not talking to the terminals internally to see what really happened. That's, that's really valuable because I think a lot of people receive the demurrage charge and they actually just feel that their hands are tied. Because what are you going to do? Fight against the port. Um, and that's really good advice because I think a lot of people just accept it. So firstly, you know, Argue where you can, but the other thing I wanted to ask you was, have you then got some sort of, um, angle that you can go against the transport, your transporter, like if you've, if you've set requirements of, this is the date that we need to follow and they've put it in their own storage and you weren't even necessarily aware of that, I mean, should you be then talking to the guys handling your trucking? So we, we do manage a lot of trucking. We do a lot of drage for our own customers, you know, so we make sure that the truckers who we hire are very well versed with what dates they have to use. So we send them a delivery order. We tell them these are your ERDs, but for lines that want us to fill out. So now we have to keep in mind, right? This is where also a forwarder comes very much in play is that when you go direct, you don't know if the line is asking you to follow the terminal, or if the line wants you to follow their confirmation. So there, these are two different things because the tariffs are managed according to these contracts they have. So depending on the transporter I hired, I will tell them, Hey, this is on a MERS client, you need to follow the terminal. Okay. So you need to keep a screenshot of when these dates have opened. When did you pull? I need an in, out gate and an in gate. So in case there is any charges, we have all this proof without a screenshot or without the tickets. I'm not even hiring a trucker to do this move. So all my truckers in house truckers know that we will need a screenshot. to show the dates were open and we will need in and out tickets. Yes. If it is a street turn, then of course we need a street turn approval. That's the second part of it, but these are the protocols that we put in so that we can hold the transporter liable in case if something happens. What are metal recyclers experiencing that nobody else is experiencing? We're a pretty unique group of people, but, um, I think that. You know, what we're packing, what we're doing has to be different to the rest of the industry. So the first thing I feel like we get dinged to get off the ship first, right? When they want cargo, they're coming back to us saying, Hey, fill up our ships. Right. But when they are full, we are the ones who get the space pressed excuse that, Hey, you know, there's no space. We can't put you up. And that is because of course our containers are heavy. Sometimes we don't follow the rules. Of, you know, making sure that our containers are loaded correctly. You know, we load loose, we don't sometimes block and brace correctly. So these are the challenges that metal scrap shippers face. And because of our weight or because of the complexities of the cargo that we load, everybody is not an expert, right? People don't know the difference between scrap. And waste or scrap and trash. They don't know. Many countries don't understand the difference between scrap and trash, right? So they think that everything that is scrap is trash, which is not true. It is not true at all, actually, right? Everything is recycled into something that we ship from the U. S. or even import into the U. S. So I feel the biggest challenges is the space issues that we get bumped out when it is a space pressed or when these kinds of times are there. And the other thing I think is that the biggest challenges the, the yards or the suppliers face is loading this correctly, right? Some people do use machinery to load it, so then they can tilt the container and load it correctly. But again, blocking and bracing is. is a little challenging for us. Yeah. We talking about the bulging of the containers, which many of us have seen many times and had many containers sent back to the yards for many years. Bulging is one thing and then leaking containers is one thing. Heavy on the axle is one thing. So these are all the nice. Things that we learn when we ship metal scrap. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I want to just touch on something quickly because you said scrap isn't trash. Scrap isn't waste. Now, um, our good friend John Sacco, um, has taught us all that words really matter. So as much as possible. We need to change it from calling it scrap because scrap people do perceive to be waste and trash. And that's why we changing, you know, the way we say it. And it's more about metal recycling or recycled material. And then hopefully over time, um, people will stop relating the two scrap and waste and realize that we're talking about recycled materials. So, yeah. And I think the good thing is that Isri changed their name to Rima. This year, right? So I think that is like a big change where we want to tell people that we are not dealing in trash or waste or anything. It is recycled material. It is valuable. There are containers that are like in value of close than 80 to 100, 000. And there is containers that are value of 20, 000 also, but not to per se that either one is trash, you know, so. So I think, I think a lot of economists and countries also need to understand the difference between scrap and trash. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we had born scrappy and my own personal LinkedIn posts, um, we are trying to, um, change that globally. So jump on the bandwagon Zohra and get Sealing to also be doing that as much as possible. Making sure we're posting it, using the right terms. I think it's just about educating people, right? Everybody doesn't know about the industry. So I feel like we're out there and we should be educating them. Exactly. Right. Okay. I want to jump into the hard stuff now because I've been really easy on you so far. So thank you. Yeah. Let's talk about the current situation, right? We're talking Geopolitical tension when we're talking about the new Trump administration and the threat of tariffs, that's having a massive, massive effect. Throw in all the port strikes and it's absolute mayhem. What have you actually seen lately? And if you can give us some examples of what's happening on the pricing, delays and things like that, so we kind of, if you're in your own bubble and you're experiencing it, it's nice to kind of get an idea that, well, other people are going through the same sort of thing. And then I want to ask you also, what's going to happen in the future. So, Answer the first one part first. What's going on? So everything is chaotic right now. We are looking at a potential strike coming up January. I believe I read an article yesterday or day before yesterday that the Trump administration is going to make all the efforts for the strike not to happen. So that is some very good news because when the strike did happen in September, Even though it was short lived, you know, the damages that occurred from that three day strike was, I want to say, at least two weeks out. Right? So it's a saying that every day the port is closed. There is a six day backlog. So three days delay was a three week backlog, you know, technically. So what, what happened with that? There were a lot of lines that had pre posted higher rates for shipments that would get in, but. Everybody then retract all those higher charges because this was so short lived and it was just three days. The ports were closed, so there was no way that anybody was able to get in anything. A lot of steamship lines even made conscious efforts to stop taking rail cargo a week before the strike was happening. So that was another. Big delay where we had loaded boxes sitting at the rail, not moving anywhere. So that shipment that's material just sitting there and you know, you are not getting paid because that shipments not moving by the time this whole thing, like settle down a little bit. Three weeks later, now you have longer transit times. You know, if the month has changed, your tariffs have gone up because all the rates went up. And if the routes were disconnected due to any political issues, then you had a longer route that the line was taking because of the delay on this side, you know, there was container imbalance happening back in Far East Asia, where, you know. Because of this 3 to 5 day delay, there was no turnaround happening. So there was a lot of container imbalance. So it's like a ripple effect with all these strikes. Um, that happened. I mean, there was a C and strike as well, which was massive. Also, um, the Canadian, the Canadian, um, rail also, um. Like, I understand that they are strike lasted a little bit longer, but at the same time, the effects were even worse because all these shipments were just sitting there without moving as at least moved in, like, three, four days, I want to say, or at least started. Right? So that's where we are with the strike. So if the Trump administration, you know, works out, negotiates this January strike, I think that would be very good because, you know, Chinese New Year is coming up. So we know that we are going to have a little bit of setback, uh, you know, due to delays because. Um, there'll be blank sailings. So if this strike doesn't happen, then, you know, we'll be able to settle with the Chinese New Year being, you know, slowed down for like a couple of weeks. I mean, let's just, we're currently going through hell and the strike was in September. Now this other strike might happen in January. Surely we should be in smooth sailing right now. Because all the repel effects are still happening, right? And I understand that the lines want to be more profitable, you know, so they have cut so many sailings, right? There are so many blank sailings. Initially, you could have like maybe five sailings into Asia. Right. Now we have three. That's a big difference between five and three, though. We can have a weekly sailing, but because there is so much of blank sailing, there is so much of port congestion at transshipment. Like for example, Singapore, Pasir Gudan, all these places, they are so congested that, you know, lines have stopped taking cargo into Malaysia, Indonesia for right now, just to ease down the congestion. And that way we can have a little bit better smooth sailing Coming 2025, but again, going into quarter one of 2025 looks stressful. You know, it doesn't look, doesn't look easy or smooth sailing. And then we have the potential strike. We have Chinese new year. We have a Ramadan coming up earlier this year. Usually Ramadan is like April, May, but Ramadan is in March. So as soon as Chinese new year is done, people are preparing in the Middle East for Ramadan. So that's going to slow us down. So I feel like. We are going in the right direction. We're going to have a bumpy ride getting into 2025. You're really not making this fun. You've read this episode, please? Yeah. You, you told me that you have to gimme what's really out there, so no. So, okay, so we are talking about, and just to get a a, a good picture, we are talking about. First quarter being tough. Um, even more so if that strike goes ahead, I mean, we all fingers crossed hoping the, you know, the Trump administration can sort this out and that there isn't a strike for all of us. That's firstly, you know, the most important, even if there isn't a strike, there's still some really strong headwinds. So, uh, we do think it'll be tough anyway. Yes. And I want to say come, uh, mid February, late February, when all the new alliances come back in, uh, MERS, capadloid, uh, Gemini is coming back in. Then the alliance with a one line Honda is coming in. So everybody's making a shift, right? Like a lot of alliances are getting shifted. So then more vessels Spaces will open up, new routings will open up, so that will, that will come in mid to end of February. So at that point, I think we will see a little bit ease in terms of more routing options. I'm not sure in terms of more capacity. We'll know a little bit once these new vessels come into rotation, you know? Okay. So. It's doom and gloom and we should all stay at home, but there's one small possibility that in February, things might get a little bit better. At the end of the day, that is what I would have said, you know, um, you know, if I was you, I would have just said, phone me, everything's going to be okay, January will be great. Um, get a hold of C Link and we'll make all the magic happen. But, uh, but there is some, some positivity. Um, I think, you know, it's cyclical things will happen and things will get tough. Things will always get better after that. I've been doing this for long enough to know that you've just got to batten down the hatches. Get through it. And at the end of the day, there will be light at the end of the tunnel. So it might be a tough quarter, might be a tough two quarters, but I think in 25, um, we should see some sort of positivity coming through. Yes, definitely. Also the way we are doing business is also shifted a lot, right? Like now. When the TDS came in, like, uh, last December, everybody remembers that, you know, when we had the Swiss canal issue and then everything got routed to the Cape of Good Hope, uh, a lot of new routings came up, right? A lot of new options came out. So I think when there is a low, there is a high, there is a low, there is a high. So we should just keep riding the wave. Like I say. Yeah. Okay. So with this in mind, what are ways that, um, metal recyclers Could do better. You know, what have you seen people do that? Like, Hey, that's actually something we could all use. So the first thing I, I would say, get a partnership with either with the 3PL or with the carrier to build some relationships because these relationships will help you guys throughout, right? When the markets are high or the markets are low, right? So I think that that's we need as metal scrap shippers or traders to build strong relationships with a carrier or with the 3PL who can understand and navigate through these tough times, right? That is one thing. Second thing I would say is invest in a good TMS, like, you know, technology, get better tracking entry, tracing, um, options for yourself, you know, use technology to see. What is more optimal for you guys as a business? Um, though, I understand that a lot of our industry is a little bit slower in technology. We are getting there, but I feel like the lines have made a huge change, you know, in the last couple of years, at least, so I feel like we all should. Push through that. I feel like, you know, we just say that the lines were not doing it. So we are not doing it. But now I feel like everyone is in the same understanding that technology is the way to go. And then of course, use buddy to manage your rates and shipments. Very good. You have an excellent tool, like a really, really excellent tool that can. That can help like from A to Z from buying to shipping. And that is really like what they need is just to make sure that they are planning this correctly. They have the cost and they understand that, you know, what is the best way for shipping. So, um, the checks in the mail, uh, it's very kind of you to talk about buddy like that. Um, but yeah, you know, technology is something that people are starting to look at in the industry. I know you guys have a fantastic platform as well and everybody I ever speak to, um, always, um, comments on your platform, which is fantastic. Um, but yeah, I think, I think the more you can utilize technology, the more it will help you become more efficient. And then we talking about real savings and affecting your bottom line. And I think that's really, we must stop being, having this hesitation and there isn't as much anymore. I mean, I speak, I speak to a lot of people that are. That are pro technology that are looking to bring things in. People are starting to see the value that it can bring. And as soon as that happens, all of a sudden it opens up your eyes and you go, okay, well, what's next? What else can I do to make more money? And at the end of the day, we, all our businesses want to make more money. So really, if you can use technology or whatever you can find to do it, um, it's going to be extremely helpful. It even reduces your dependency on the line or the carrier, right? If you have this technology, you don't have to wonder where is my shipment? What's going on? What's the delay? You know, do I need to adjust my LC terms or, you know, all those kinds of small, small things, which do matter in the bigger picture, right? We might just say, Hey, it's delayed for four days, but No, it's not. I mean, four days is four days. Right. So I feel like that dependency is, you know, going to be zero. If you invest in good it, you know, I mean, Zara, I tell you when we were building buddy, one of the key things we're trying to reduce the amount of emails because they are, you'd know, but there's thousands of emails just between you and the suppliers and the by now imagine also between the two of them. Um, and one of the key things where that always comes up is where's the container? When is the container arriving? Right? And that's for few reasons. One is it needs to be melted by the buyer. They have orders on their side. The other thing is there's payment that is linked to the movement of the container. And that's what we added in the track. And that's why you guys have the tracking because now. The buyer doesn't have to contact you anymore and say, where's the container? We don't have to find the freight port to find out where it is. You just got to open up your platform and it shows you exactly where it is. Estimated time of arrival, make things very, very easy. So when Shahzad was working on our app and everything, right? That was the most thing. That was the most, I think he. Most time that he put on this life tracking and tracing. Right? So if you see our website, you will see all the ships and the, you know, you'll see where your container is like, it's really nice to see it in live view. But that was because everybody was, where's my box? Where's my box? Where's my container? Did it get loaded? Right? So now we even have the PO management tool where they can do all of this. All of this. And they are not dependent on like, Hey, is Zora picking up her phone today or no, you know? So that's the thing, right? Because they are nervous till that box doesn't get to destination because. Give the people that need the information, the information when they need the information, that's like what my wife always says to me, it's like, give it to them when they need it and that's what's super powerful instead of making people go and chase to find that information. Look, I can speak about technology in this industry for years. So, so let's move on, carry on with shipping. Um, What are the regulatory issues that we've got coming up? There's a huge amount of changes happening in the EU. Um, there's some risk of things happening in the U S and the rest of the world. What are you seeing at the moment that people really need to stay on top of? So, uh, in terms of tariffs and, uh, implementations that are coming up, so EU, the EU implement implementations, I think are going to be effective March for sure. And we are seeing, uh, Uh, from our perspective that new markets are going to open up for all that material that they are going to restrict because I believe they are going to allow certain HS codes like how China did a couple of years ago, you're going to be allowed like 5 to 7 HS codes depending on the Basel convention and only those HS codes will be allowed to be shipped. Right? So we are thinking that India will get very strong and Southeast Asia markets will also get stronger with this EU coming in. A lot of new markets have already opened up because of this restriction coming in, right? Plus when these, uh, Tariffs that the Trump administration is hoping to post. I feel like there will be another shift in the market as well. So I think March will be a good time where we will be able to see how these things are fitting into our industry, especially who can take what and what we'll be able to ship where. I just think there will be a segregation of material that will be shipped to Europe, that will be shipped to China, and then the rest will be shipped to Southeast Asia. So I think that's how it will be segregated. Yeah, and I think the demand is going to be very interesting as well. Yes, yes, the demand. If less material is leaving the EU, um, demand for certain regions and certain material is going to skyrocket, so. Yes. It's a, it's a very interesting time. It's, it's something, you know, I've been strongly against implementing these sort of regulations, but it's something now we have to live with. Um, so yeah, I think, And that's where that comes in, right? Like people think metal scrap is trash and, you know, it's the whole thing over there, it's just a matter of education is that, you know, people who are, I guess, putting in these regulations or, you know, working on these things probably don't even know the difference between ferrous and non ferrous, right? So sometimes it becomes difficult for them to like, understand the bigger picture or, you know, they haven't gone into a yard to see what the loading is or how, and not to say that, you know, everything is clean. You know, we, we also have, you know, ways to segregate the material to identify the good and the bad. So I feel like. All of this should be taken into into consideration, you know, the country regulations, the waste classifications, all of these should be taken into consideration. And then we can come up with, you know, some kind of tariff things and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's about having a voice at the table. Unfortunately, um, and we haven't controlled our own narrative for very long. And therefore we're now dealing with the repercussions. So we keep focusing on, on, um, using the words correctly and, and, um, and trying to just, um, teach everybody about the importance of, of recycling in general, I wanted to ask you, what are some common mistakes that you're seeing recyclers doing, um, that we could kind of tell them now on the podcast, like these are the things I've seen. This is how you can correct it. You know, what are the top two things that they could do tomorrow as they, as they arrive in the yard? So I feel like the first two things is that understand your material, accurately classify your metal scrap, you know, understand what is your classification of your scrap. Study that, you know, just don't believe what your yard or your supplier is saying. You know, I think that's where the most hands get burned. Uh, we had an example of a very good shipper. He bought 10, 000 tons of copper and they went blindly trusted the supplier. The shipment reached destination and it's nothing but mud. Okay. It's heartbreaking. You know, it can bring down a whole company, you know, and these kinds of things we see a lot. And I'm not saying that, um, they should have been more diligent. They should have done more due diligence. They should have asked for pictures. They should have gone to a loading facility. You know, if you're buying so much material, then you should do your due diligence, you know, also always use the right. Shipping methods to load these containers so that way you don't have bulging issues or leaking issues, you know, which is also going to add cost to your shipments. It's not going to make it smoother. So if I, if I want to give two advices, I would say that please always make sure that you know the classification of your scrap. You are making sure that you are buying from a trusted facility, a yard And wherever you are shipping, you are abiding to the countrywide custom regulations, you know, because when, you know, you would think that a certain, uh, like batteries, e waste, like everybody's talking about it, batteries, e waste, you know, people are thinking it's metal scrap. It's not metal scrap. It goes under e waste and e waste and metal scrap is not the same thing. So people are putting in like batteries while loading some metal scrap. And then when The shipments reach destination. Customs opens up a box and then you're flagged because, you know, somebody thought that e waste is metal scrap. Just, they just assumed it, right? Nobody did their due diligence. So my advice is please always, you know, make sure you know what your shipping is all about. That abided to the country that you're shipping, use the right, you know, make deals with the right yards or mills. And then of course, to reduce your risk by insurance. I'm a big advocate for insurance because of, you know, everything that is happening, like, especially like I had 90 containers on the Dali vessel that hit the Baltimore bridge. And I want to say from that Maybe 50, 55 had insurance and it was, it was good because, you know, they didn't have to shell out money from the pocket, but the remaining containers, they took a big hit. They did. And that is why I want to say like to manage your risk, please, you know, look into insurances. Look, I want to talk about the mud that got delivered as copper, but I won't go into it now. We're going to run out of time and also you probably can't tell us too much on that. Yeah. But yeah, that, that, that's some real learnings for, for a lot. And we see that a lot. We see that a lot. We have burned our hands a lot as well. We had a customer saying, Hey, this is for you. plastic scrap and it wasn't and when it reached destinations, we have 50 containers sitting in long standing. The government is like, you are misdeclaring and we are like, no, this is what we were told. So there are these things that are happening in the industry. Be diligent, read, you know, make sure that you're talking to people, attend seminars, understand what you're dealing with. That's all I want to tell. Like that's what I want to educate the people is that it's a great industry, great, great opportunities for learning, but let's learn it the right way. So on that topic, I mean, are there any, um, kind of networks or tools or resources that we can use that you recommend we are reading up about or being a part of to just stay up to date with what's happening in the shipping industry? So, when it comes to metal scrap, I would highly recommend, uh, is the, which is now Rima, uh, B. I. R. B. I. R. that is the Bureau of international recycling that I think they do like 3 or 4 shores, uh, shows across the world. Um. J. O. C. Is a great tool that you know, everybody can read up. They post a lot of stuff, um, for regular U. S. Look at the C. P. B. Website where we can see that, you know, what is allowed? What is not allowed? What is duty? What is the duty percentage? Because a lot of time, you know, you say that, Hey, you know, I want to get this custom cleared, but you have no idea what the duty structure is. So read a little bit on that, but I think these are great tools. tools. I would especially encourage everybody to be a part of Isri and Rima because they have a lot of good stuff that they post. Like, I want to say like every week on everything on market situations on what is the, what is going on around, uh, with the shipping and stuff like that. So. Um, before we jump into the final few questions, which is getting to know you a little bit better so that when we had a conference and we see you, somebody can run up to you and say, I like the same TV show as you or whatever it might be. Um, I just going to tell you that I think you probably said the word scrap 50 to a hundred times in this episode. So when you listen back, try count them. And I think we're going to start, um, uh, maybe making you penalized. Every time we say scrap, you got to put like money in a jar, like a swear jar. You know, like we do with kids. I'll be rich then. Well, somebody else will be, we'll take the money away. You don't get to keep it. All right. Let's get to know Zohreh quickly. Have you got a favorite TV show or movie? Uh, I really like light comedy, romance comedy. So I think meet the parents. I think I love that movie. I don't know why it was classic. I know it's classic. I like one and two. It's funny. Yeah. Gaylord fucker. Yes. That's funny. Um, have you got a favorite place to visit? So I just, uh, visited Paris last year and I loved the city. I don't know why a lot of people don't like Paris. They think people are rude there, but I don't know. That city had a great vibe. You can walk around and I really liked it. I really liked that place. I had a A previous favorite would be London, but then I saw Paris, so now I like Paris better. Sticking with Europe though as a theme here. Favorite book, do you, do you read a lot? Uh, not a lot, but I have read some good books. I think, uh, The Power of Habits is a good book that I'm reading now. It's, it's like, I've just started it a couple of weeks ago. Um, One of my friends recommended Atomic Habits, but I haven't read it, so I think that would be my next read, but The Power of Habits, it's a good read, because I'm just reading it, so I feel like it's good. So I must be your friend, because I was about to recommend Atomic Habits by James Clear. Oh, it's fantastic. So I don't know the one you're reading. I mean, you need to let me know how good it is. Yeah. After you read Atomic Habits, tell me what you thought. Yeah, she told me that I was reading this, The Power of Habits, and she said, you have to read Atomic Habits. Yeah, exactly right. And lastly, our industry loves a good quote. Have you got a favorite quote you use? Always be little kinder. That's it. You know, I just think it goes a long way, especially in our industry. Everyone needs everything yesterday. You know, it was supposed to happen yesterday, day before yesterday. And you're always, chasing, chasing, be nice and be kinder than necessary. I think that's, I think that will take you a long way. At least it's taken me a long way. So I think, I think that's my code. I think that sums you up beautifully. And, uh, on that note, thank you so much for being on Born Scrappy. I love this episode. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Thanks. All right. Cheers.