S3E9: The next generation of metal trading with Steelbro International's Abhijay Goenka

In today's episode, I chat with Abhijay Goenka. He is the Vice President of Steelbro International, the Co-Chair of ReMA's Young Executives Council and is on the Young Traders Committee at the BIR.

Abhijay has an MBA from Wharton and a Bachelor of Science degree in Finance and Accounting from NYU Stern. He is the perfect example of the very impressive next generation coming into the industry!

In today's episode, we talk about:

👉  Why brokers are investment bankers
👉  Understanding both sides of a trade
👉  Collaborating with competitors
👉  Thinking long term
👉  And much more!

Listen to the full episode. Wherever you stream your podcasts.

Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.

The only marketplace and trade OS built for scrappies, by scrappies.

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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by Abbie Jay Goenka. Abbie is the vice president of Steelbro International and is the co chair of RIMA's Young Executive Council. He's also on the Young Traders Committee at the BAR. He received his MBA from U Penn Wharton School of Business and his undergraduate degree from NYU Stern School of Business. Abby is the perfect example of the very impressive next generation coming into the industry. In today's episode, we talk about how we are like investment bankers, understanding both sides of the trade, thinking long term, collaborating with competitors, and so much more. So let's get into it with Abby. But first intro. Hey, Abijay, how are you? Doing well, Stu, how about yourself? Yeah, I'm doing great. I, uh, just got back from Singapore late last night, um, for the BAR, but, uh, I think I'm so used to traveling back and forth that the time zone isn't really affecting me. The time zone changed. I'm okay. Have you done any traveling? The, the, the, the travel and the jet lag, that gets to me. It's, uh, now I know I'm getting old, it's not hard. Oh, please. How old are you again? 32. Yeah, exactly. You've got a long way to go, mate. Um, you know, you went to the BIR, have you been doing much traveling lately? Uh, there's always travel. Um, unfortunately I couldn't go to Singapore out of family commitment, but there's, there's always some other travel taking its place, so. Yeah, I hear you that, uh, it goes without saying in this industry, right? Yeah. We're not afraid to jump on a plane. So Abby, let's talk about, um, a bit about your background for those that don't know you, how you got into the industry. Tell us about Steelbro. Um, what you guys have been up to, how long you've been around. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'll first kick off talking about Steelbro. Cause that gives context about. My entire life. Um, so still brought the family business. My father started the company in, uh, started in scrap metal in 1979, started the company in 1981. Um, but it was a family business. It's a business that my grandfather was running back when he was in India. So he would run stainless steel mills. Um, and my father shortening the story came to the U S to help source metal for my grandfather. Um, and then over the years, uh, The, the export side took off, um, the stainless steel mill side in India has shrunk. Um, but yeah, my, my father's been doing it for, for 40 years and we've expanded to not only stainless steel, uh, but we do most grades in non ferrous that go export. We're not dealing only in India. We, we deal with, uh, many different countries. Um, and we're doing, uh, today, hopefully, you know, things will continue growing, but we're doing between five to 600 containers every month of non ferrous. Uh, the name steel bro comes from, uh, when, when you think of. Stainless steel in India, you say steel. And if you're thinking of, you know, what iron that would be the difference. Uh, so steel, so for stainless steel and my dad originally started with one of his brothers. So steel brothers, still bro. Um, but yeah, that was my challenge. You're not doing any ferrous as well. We do, we do very little ferrous. That's something maybe icing on the cake every now and then. But, uh, the core, the core business is definitely the non ferrous side of things. Um, but yeah, so that, that was my childhood, basically seeing, seeing my father run and grow this business. Uh, he, I've heard about this. He used to have an office, uh, we're in New York. He used to have an office in the city. Uh, he got rid of it. Uh, he, he built a office in our house. So it was like a second part of the house, uh, which meant, you know, we had employees coming in, of course he would be there, but I was always around the business, didn't know what any of them meant, you know, grew up hearing honey ocean, Birchcliffe, I'm sure many. Exporters say the same story, but I heard it all the time. Uh, I remember in like third grade, we were learning about the statue of liberty, how it was made out of copper. And, uh, my father mentioned, Oh yeah, I Dylan copper. I do copper. And I was so excited. I was like, Oh, can you bring me some copper to school tomorrow? I would love, love to do it for show and tell. Um, but I interned when I was in high school, you know, I was trying to pay for an Xbox, he paid me a dollar an hour. So I do, I would do some paperwork. Um, and then college, uh, I did a little work as well. I helped some of the it and infrastructure. We were doing some, uh. Digital transformation, setting up the remote office. So I was helping with some of the operations on that side. Uh, but it was, it was a couple of years after college where I joined the business full time. that's when I really, you know, dive deep. Um, so my introduction to the business was, uh, we were at that time looking to expand a little bit more into our European operations, um, I was, Outside of the industry. I was working in consulting at the time. Um, but I thought it was a great opportunity for me to come into the business, focus on a space that was different than, uh, our core market. So I could screw up, I could embarrass myself. I could not know the difference in aluminum, copper, and not, uh, not ruin a core business of ours. So that's, so I came in, traveled a lot through Europe, saw a lot of scrap yards and slowly shifted into the U S side of things. Um, and that was approximately nine years ago. So, so nine years later, I hope I'm a little bit smarter. Hope I know the metals a little bit better. Uh, but doing a mix of things now, um, you know, sometimes I wear the trading hat, I do some of our buying and selling, um, a lot of management. So, uh, you know, as any exporter would tell you dealing with issues, looking at new markets, looking at new products, seeing where we can expand. And then a lot of, you know, cash management, just accounting, risk evaluation, and, you know, so all the above, there's a lot that goes into that, that not everybody sees, um, when you talk about cash management, accounting, risk management, right? Um, if you're a trader or in America, they'll call you a broker. Um, you're constantly having to juggle with that cash situation because you're paying really early, but you're usually only receiving the funds when it arrives on the other side. And that's how you maximize your sales price. Right? Absolutely. Um, it's funny you say that because, uh, a lot of my peers are in the finance industry, you know, I went to. And why you, uh, in the business school, I went to UPenn. So of my peers are in investment banking and hedge funds. So when they asked me what I do, I, I don't actually mention, uh, I'm an exporter or trader, I say, I'm an investment bank fostering the international trade of scrap metal. Um, cause what, when I mentioned bank, then they asked like the right questions and they understand things because honestly, that's, that's the core of the business is how quickly am I turning my cash flows? You know, what are my credit exposures? Um, you know, how much am I deploying at any given time? How am I evaluating our business to see, do I have a cash buffer? So that way, if our receivables somehow are a week longer than our forecast, do I still have the cash to pay my suppliers? And, uh, and still, you'll know better than anyone. If you, if you miss a payment and you don't pay your supplier, your reputation is done. You're out. Um, so, so 40 years on so far that hasn't happened. And, you know, slowly more and more, it's becoming my responsibility to make sure it doesn't happen. I love that because, um, it's so interesting that you have to actually spin what we, what we do, but you know, how many times do I speak about people from all industries or all, whatever you've studied in college should come into this industry because there is so many different avenues, right? We talk about logistics, marketing, um, health and safety, HR, finance, banking, like commodity trading. There's so. Many avenues that can lead you here and you can enjoy every single minute of it because actually what's different to the, for example, the trading side is we don't trade paper, we trade actual metal. And that's actually, in my opinion, way more exciting when there's actually a physical, uh, Um, commodity being traded, um, especially when it's being traded in your yard or um, you're actually handling it or you're buying it or you're moving these containers. So yeah, we, we constantly are driving for the next generation that it isn't just relying on the kids of the fathers who are in the business, but rather bringing people out of college and things like that. So it's cool that you are speaking to these people and having those discussions. Do you ever actually say to them at the end? Well, it's actually metal recycling trading. No, of course. Of course. I always. My way of introducing it is I give them one sentence and I see if they ask questions. If they don't ask questions, okay, we'll leave it at that. If they ask questions, Oh, I got so much more to tell you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So you, you've been doing this now for, is it, it's almost 10 years, you and the company 40, right? Is there any sort of, um, trade or transaction? That was either told to you by your father, um, or your grandfather, or would you've experienced yourself that was extremely difficult to navigate. And were there specific learnings that came out of that for you and the whole family and the whole company? Yeah. Um, you know, again, unfortunately there, there are. A lot of challenging trades that take place, my opinion is every single trade you, you experience that you, you conduct and you have an issue, uh, it helps you develop that playbook. You know, what is that playbook to deal with the next issue? Um, and there's always, always another issue. You know, if it comes to like one specific one, that was the most challenging, uh, I wouldn't say that. But, uh, you know, I mentioned that I started focusing a little bit more on Europe and I first started in the trade and I really didn't understand metals that well. So every single yard I walked into every single type of metal that I saw, I wanted to quote on and I would just take photos, shoot it over on WhatsApp to a buyer and be like, Hey, what's the price for this? And they would ask a couple of questions. I would probably not know the answers. And, uh, and there were some people that like, Hey, you know what? This seems a little risky. I'm not going to quote on this. Um, and there are other people that would just, you know, put the risk on me and say, Hey, I trust you, which was great of them, but saying, here's a price, go, go out and try to buy it. Um, but the challenge in those early days was I didn't understand what I was moving. I didn't understand to, you know, you take a shredded product, for example. There are a lot of questions to ask, right? How is it generated? What kind of machinery you're going through? How many, any currency you're running through? Um, you know, is it your own shredder? Is it coming from someone else? Uh, all these questions I didn't know how to ask, which made dealing with the claims very challenging. But as you go through it and you understand both sides, a, who is the supplier? How are they generating the product? You understand the product better. Similarly B, who am I selling it to? How are they handling the product? What are they intending to use it for? Um, and ultimately how are they making their money? Uh, and once you understand both sides, uh, that's where you can, if there is a problem, that's where you can kind of navigate the issue and navigate it from a place where both sides give you the respect and trust. And honestly, that's what makes you a good, good exporter and a good partner. Um, so, you know, another quick example would be. Uh, we do some aluminum into Europe. Um, and I, I, there are some types of products that I know if I'm going into Europe, I can place it directly into, you know, it's called a rolling mill and it's, it's going in, they're going to have very little tolerance. If there's an issue, they're just going to reject it. And it's, it's ultimately my problem to deal with. Um, whereas there are other consumers that there are options, right? If something doesn't, Meet the spec claim is a different story, right? The question is, is how do they handle it? Listen, I'll be able to open the bales. Um, I can maybe run it through a shredder. I maybe can run it over a magnet. I can clean it up. Um, and then we'll just put some sort of discount on it, but I can keep it moving. Um, and we don't have to ship it back to the U S which is never the right option. Um, so, uh, you know, so, so these are, these are things that, uh, you learn and, and you keep building that playbook. I think Andy Golding said last week, he said, um, you know, You never want material to come back to you as a metal recycler. It's the worst thing that can happen. If that container comes back, um, that that's a real pain and, and. It'll be a bad reflection on the trader, even if they have packed incorrectly, or, you know, it hasn't been on spec, whatever it is, the fact that you couldn't find a home for it, or do something with it, um, will be a reflection on you, and they won't want to trade with you again. But on the other hand, if you do find a home for it, they absolutely love you, especially when they can, um, accept that they didn't pack on spec material and you didn't make it come back to them. Yeah. They took a knock on the price, but you didn't make it come back. They didn't have to pay for the shipping and all those sort of issues that were going to come as well with that. Um, as well as now trying to sell it on a new market at a different price, et cetera. So, um, yeah, that's, that's hugely powerful. Have you had to make a difficult decision In your 10 years that you've been there, have you had to make a really hard decision and whether that's walking away from a deal or deciding not to go into Europe anymore, whatever it might be. Has there been anything that was really that, that you had to, um, really navigate and decide what you were going to do? Yeah, there've been a few. So, so one thing is trying to decide what direction I want the business to go in, where we should be focusing on and what kind of risks we can take. Um, so if we talk about maybe on the easier side of the spectrum, uh, Hey, I got this buyer who's given a really good price. I know I can make good money on this. Um, heck, maybe this is An outsized margin that I just want to move quick and close it. And it takes a lot of patience, a lot of self control to say, let me, let me slow down a bit, let me vet this a little bit. Let me either a know who I'm dealing with or B check my, my credit threshold, my exposure levels here. And, and say, this might be really appealing now, but it might turn into a problem later. Um, and I'm sure everyone in this industry will say, if something seems too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true. Uh, and somehow those opportunities seem to come all the time, you know, where something just seems, something just seems too good. Um, and you know, uh, it's, it's also one of those things where, um, it's, it's a matter of trust too, right? Sometimes someone is making a mistake. Uh, I've had issues come across scenarios where I know. A supplier of mine is making a mistake and I couldn't make, take advantage of it and make a lot of money relative to, you know, a normal trade. Um, but that's, that's not the way I would like to do business, right? I, one thing I'll harp on always is it's a relationship business. You want to develop a relationship. I think in the longterm. By identifying the mistake, communicating with the supplier, telling them, Hey, listen, I, I can pay you much better. You're representing the material wrong, or there's something else in this material. Let's do this. Let me pay you this. I'll take less money. Uh, but now I've built a relationship for the longterm. Right. And, and our entire goal as an exporter is to say, Hey, would you give me a last look, right? Would you, would you have that conversation with me where I give you a price that you need an extra penny? Let me know and I'll work with you on it. Um, that's our entire goal, right? To get to that point or somebody to tell you a price upfront. If you, if you're getting that, you are winning. I mean, how many times did I receive a call from a trader and they go, um, Oh, and I'll say, I've got this to sell. They go, Oh, what's your, what price are you looking for? Right. I was like, come on, dude. If I tell you the price, that's really unfair to somebody else I've been dealing with for 20 years. So, um, just come with your best offer. Your objective is to always just, if you can get that price or somebody to give you the last bite, you know, you're doing a great job. Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a give and take, right? It's a, that's why it's a two way communication. It's a two way partnership. Um, you know, I, I do always like to give the first price, but I really hope that there's, it's not just a yes or no, it's a conversation and that comes with trust. That comes with knowing that, Hey, I'm also in the market. I'm not just looking for your price. Cause I have no idea what it is and I'll try to do something with it. No, it's a, I have an idea of what's going on. Um, well, let's have a conversation. Let's build a relationship. And, uh, And not taking advantage of people goes a long way. And that goes both ways. I've made a lot of mistakes and people have helped me out. I'm like, Hey, you're, uh, you've quoted 10 cents too high here. I'm like, Oh, I'm bad. I messed up my calculation here. Happens more often than I'd like to admit. I've, I mean, I've seen it all the time. Um, especially when you get a new trader who comes in really excitable. Um, the amount of, I used to see it a lot on ICW and copper cables. Um, Because often a new trader would kind of just calculate the, um, recovery rate and send you through the price and they haven't taken into consideration costs or margins or anything else, uh, because they know their price of selling the granules. Um, so that's happened many times and I've had to say to the guys, look. You are so much higher that I wish I could take this price and I wish that it's real, but I absolutely know it's not right. And, and, and it's, you know, it's too high. And immediately you want to say to yourself, well, I hope he's going to come back and say, it's the correct price. Right. But even, and I've had, even when they come in, they're adamant it's the correct price. I have to be like, can you go and check with somebody else? Yeah, because there's no more hidden markets in this industry. Like I realized 30 years ago that you might get a great price and somebody off for the first time, they've opened up a new market in Southeast Asia or something we couldn't get to. Was that, and that could happen nowadays. Like the world's too small now, you know, you might get an extra few percent if you're lucky, but to get 10, 20 percent more than the next person, it's just not going to happen. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree with that. Yeah. So do you, you know, as a, I'm going to call you a broker, although everybody around the rest of the world is going to be upset with me, but as a broker slash trader, um, do you collaborate with others? I mean, other than your suppliers, um, and your buyers, is there any other collaboration you do in the industry? Uh, outside of suppliers and buyers. Well, yeah, I mean, you can tell me about those as well, but I mean, in general, do you ever find yourself leaning on other traders or, Oh yeah, without, without question. Um, That's where in my experience, the, the trade associations become incredibly helpful. So I'm on the, uh, the, the committee for the young executive council on the young executive, uh, sorry, I'm the co chair, um, for Rima, for Rima, correct. Uh, and then I'm also on the, uh, BIR, uh, young traders, a counselor. Um, but attending those events, I have made a number of connections, a number of people that I consider friends, uh, vast majority of them, I don't do any business with. Uh, luckily some of them I do, which is great. But, uh, the, the beauty of, of the Opportunity Room was presented with, with their Young Trader networking events with the BYAB, uh, conference that's hosted every year. Um, is that you make connections with people that are growing with you in the industry that are continuing to gain more seniority as well, and are gaining experiences that might be entirely different from yours. But that's exactly what you want because when you call them and you have a question to ask, they're so happy to help. So happy to give whatever advice they have. And because they have those different experiences and different perspectives, it's incredibly useful. Uh, asking someone that has the same exact experiences as you have. Uh, a question oftentimes is not nearly as valuable as someone that has incredibly different experiences. Um, so I can name a number of people within Rima who are part of these events. So part of these committees, part of these councils who I call all the time to be like, Hey, I'm trying to do a new grade of aluminum. I truly don't understand. One example recently was I'm trying to understand the difference between class one, class two, and class three. It's not a product we've ever handled before. And, uh, I've been able to call some, some people and be like, Hey, can you explain this to me? Come on, drop some names. Uh, so, so ShoePan, uh, they, they've helped me, uh, Rob Weiss from Metal Conversions. Uh, I've called him countless, countless times. Um, Sam Shine from Utility. I mean, they're, they're, I can keep going. There's so many people that. I wanted to stop you and ask you for one reason that. I want to give credit to those people because, and also to show that what you're doing and put a name on it, it is actually real. This isn't just hogwash. Somebody saying, Oh, I phone people in the industry and they help me. A lot of people feel that they're, um, you know, like mushrooms and they're going to hide in the corner and, um, nobody's kind of there to help them. And that's completely wrong. And you're actually just doing it to yourself. The more we talk about it. Yeah. The more I try expose people to the idea that reach out to people, like if you need help on something, whether it's a specific trade right now, or your own knowledge, you're trying to grow or whatever it might be, you know, other people in this industry have gone through this before. Now, I mentioned to you earlier that my wife worked at Deloitte and was involved in strategy and innovation as a management consultant, and they used to often when they had it. You know, a project that they had to get sink their teeth into, they would say, I'm sure somebody else in the world has solved this problem before. How can I find that person? So if you're dealing with something and it's a commodity, you're not sure of if it's a trade that's going wrong, if it's shipping issues, whatever it could be. Somebody else has dealt with that before, reach out and find that person. We're all willing to introduce you to other people and try and find out how they were able to solve that issue. Absolutely. Stu, I mean, uh, you look at some of the macroeconomic things that have happened recently with, uh, with COVID with the porch strike, uh, regulations taking place around the world. Um, you know, uh, being able to talk to other exporters, you know, talk to the Charlotte Greenland, uh, part that, uh, about industries, uh, being able to have friends that are, you're, of course we're in competition, but the beauty of this industry is that everyone's willing to support each other. Everyone's willing to communicate and we're all in the same boat. We're all navigating some similar issues. And everyone's got, as I said before, their perspectives and their experiences on how to, how to build that playbook and how to handle it. And that collaboration I think is, is key to success. If, uh, anyone is trying to navigate the waters without that guidance, I mean, best of luck to you, you know, kudos to you if you're successful. Uh, I don't know how you do it. It's, uh, it's, it's critical. Yeah. It's taking a long, a lot on, um, on your own shoulders where there's other people to help you with that burden. You talk about macro factors. I mean, that's huge. We're all suffering with the exact same thing. It's not like yours is specific. When we talk about port strikes, COVID, like to reach out, Cause everybody else is going through it. You mentioned Vishal. Um, he is one of the best people in the industry. Absolutely love him. It's so much time for him. What did, what an absolute legend, you know, I don't want to now get him inundated with calls because I'm going to say that if you ever need help phone Vishal, but. It's an example of somebody that is always there and willing to help anybody. And that is including if you're a competitor, he's not going to ignore you and go, Oh, I hope you go under and suffer. He's literally going to pick up a phone and say, how can my team or how can I help you right now? So there are many people like that. Vishal is a great, great example. Yeah, I totally, totally agree with that. Have you granted nine years, 10 years in the industry, but have you had a highlight Something that makes you think, wow, this industry is awesome. Or something that you've experienced. It just kind of, um, really is like a cherry on top for your decades so far in the industry. Yeah. I mean, we, we kind of touched on it, but the events that Rima has hosted. For the young executives in this industry. Um, I think now, right now, the, they define it as 40 and under. Um, those have been defining it. I just missed it only just now my wife's going to laugh at this. Cause I once introduced myself as being in the, my very, very, very early forties. I'm actually 44, but I'm going to say I just missed that 40 year old carry on. Well, you know, listen, we'll sneak you in and I'm sure you'll, you'll, uh, you'll fit right in. Um, but yeah, I mean, as, as I was saying, like the, those events have been defining experiences within my growth in this industry, um, and setting aside what it meant for my professional career, it's been the highlights of my enjoyment within this industry. Look, I work in a, in a family business. I spent a lot of time with my father. I spent a lot of time with my uncle. Uh, you know, we, we have a bunch of offices, but relative to some of these other players in the industry, we're a small team, um, And, uh, not many people my age. Uh, so an opportunity to mingle with other people, my age, being able to have those connections, have those bondships and those friendships, being able to grow in the industry together. Um, honestly, that's been, that's been a highlight for me. That's been, um, Put all the professional stuff aside, incredibly fulfilling. So what could people do? So if you're under 40 years old in this industry right now, what should they be doing? Because there is an event you spoke of earlier and I've heard about it quite a bit. It's an annual event where they get everybody together and you get on buses and you go and tour a few facilities and they, I think, is that right? Yeah. So it's called the best, best young and brightest, uh, the BYAB. Um, it's hosted at the chapter level. Um, so it rotates between different cities. Uh, most recently it was in Mobile. Historically, it's been in Cleveland. It's been in Detroit, uh, Tacoma, Boston. Um, I forgot how many years it's been going for. Um, I want to roughly say seven or eight, uh, but don't quote me on that. Um, but it's a, it's a small. Event in the sense that they cap it at, let's add roughly 30 people and it's all young, bright, energetic, eager individuals that apply. Unfortunately apply very, very quickly because then the cap gets hit. Um, and it's just two days where frankly, between each other, very little business is discussed, right? I'm not there talking about, Hey, what's the price of yellow brass? Um, it's very much, Hey, what's your story? What do you do on a day to day basis? Also, what are your interests and just building those bonds, um, of course, the program is also combined with professional and leadership training. So there are, um, there are, you know, educational classroom style, uh, seminars, uh, and that's a great part of it too. Um, but the combination just really forms a lot of bonds and then that's capitalized even further by. Uh, at a lot of the chapter events, like the consumer's night in St. Louis, uh, the round tables in Chicago, as well as obviously the national convention, they have usually a happy hour or some sort of meetup of the young traders where we all get together. And it's a time where, you know, we can catch up after a long break and just continue building those bonds. Um, anyone interested in the space, uh, get, get involved. Uh, you can reach out to myself. Uh, Lacey is the liaison on Rima. Um, and then you can get you connected to events and there's a lot of opportunities to contribute, but it's a great way to build bonds. I want people to realize that, um, they might've heard this before, but what you put in is what you get out and. Nothing more so than within these trade associations, right? It's like if you join them and just pay your fee and have nothing to do with it. Oh, what can you really expect? But if you participate and you get involved in these sort of events, the payback is just Um, and it's just gigantic. Like the more you get involved, the more you'll get out of it. So as a young trader, um, somebody coming through the ranks, if you're planning on, which I'm sure most people are, if you're listening to this, planning on being in this industry for a long time, I think it's really important to get involved in, like you said, the BYAB get involved in those happy hours, get involved in the associations, um, do whatever you can. You know, the BIR has a young traders association as well. They have meetups, um, you know, get involved in the boards. Whatever you can, um, the payback is, is a lot bigger than you'll expect. I said something, I said to somebody just the other day, that if you start doing it, I'm pretty sure that in two years time, you'll thank me for it, even though you might not see it right away. It's kind of get involved. Um, what's it going to cost you? Right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes it does require time. Sometimes it does require effort. Uh, but to your point, the payback is multiple times over. Tell me when it comes to exporting, which is, you know, your main focus, what are ways that, um, suppliers metal recyclers can optimize their trading strategy? So, you know, what are you seeing people doing? That's maybe not perfect. What could they do better? And what have you seen people do really, really well? And you can be specific around the U S um, if you choose to, um, totally up to you. Sure. Um, the baseline recommendation I would give to anyone. Looking to optimize their trading would be to be willing to have conversations. I do see a tendency, sometimes myself included, where we stick to the email. We stick to the text messages. I have this load here. The picture is just give me a price. Um, and they're not open to just getting on a call and conversing. Um, the reason I say that is it is efficient from, from a time standpoint, a hundred percent efficient. And that's why, again, I had the same problem. Um, but there's always communication that is lost in the process. And if you have a relationship with whoever it is, being able to get on the phone, talk to them, you learn something that you probably haven't. For example, with motors, uh, motors is a high volume item. A lot of scrapyards get it, uh, in theory. Hey, here are the photos of my motors. Please give me a price. Um, I will give you a price, but if, uh, if it's a yard that I can talk to, I can tell them, Hey, these are the factors that actually go into the price, right? What is the difference between 80, 20 mixed motor versus a small package versus a large package, even within a small package, how can you get a premium small package versus a standard small package? If you give you a price and it's a little bit low, there may be a reason for it. I'm seeing something that I'm a conservative guy. I don't want any issues. I'm going to dock my price a little bit. Someone may not be giving you that same, you know, discount, but they may give it to you after, after it reaches overseas and they find that same issue. Um, so that's just one example, but the idea of doesn't have to be on every trade, but periodically getting on the phone, talking to who you're selling to, talking to who's processing the material and understanding what they're seeing, what they're looking for. Um, that in itself will give you so much to optimize. Um, you, you even learn things that, Hey, that consumer who you like probably buys more than, you know, um, there may be an opportunity to sell them a mixed load. Right. And, and whereas before you were, you were, uh, you know, we, we have a yard in Chicago, um, and, and being able to sell mixed loads is key to our business there. Uh, it's not a massive business. It's not a massive yard. Um, so we have certain flows and I need to be able to move that material quickly. Uh, being able to get on a phone call to understand what my consumers, even if he's a lead consumer, uh, there might be one or two other things that he could take on the same load and pay good enough that I can move it. Uh, that's opened up a lot of doors for them, what I can buy, um, and what I can bring in. And that allows my business to grow. So, so just get on the phone, have those conversations. That's really funny. Um, sorry. And I was, I was kind of, if you're watching this on YouTube, I was smiling in the background because, um, I'm going to challenge you on that from the other side, and I totally agree with you as a buyer. What you want is to get the seller on the phone because you can find out these things and I agree you probably can get a better price if you have the conversation. The problem a seller has is that often. Let's say for example, the person selling for the company is the owner, right? Owner operator, he's also selling, he's wearing 50 different hats in a day, right? Whether it's HR, operations, whatever it could be. To get on the phone to each person is really difficult. Now, say for example, whenever I sell something, I want to offer it to five people. That's five conversations you want me to have. It's just as hard. Even on messaging. So when I message you and say, Hey, Abby, looking for a price, um, on some Elmo, here's my latest pictures and you write me back a message and want to know about my family and how everything's going. That's fantastic. And we were relationship industry and I totally agree, but right now. What I want from you is a price, right? Um, and that's where it gets really difficult because if I have five people that are constantly asking me about my family and building relationships and totally agree with it, this is where it's difficult. Um, it means I'm having five when I'm selling five, five parcels in a day, having 25 conversations, if you can just work with me on that, um, that becomes hard and you're saying, make the phone call. Now here's where I would say there's a happy medium, right? Yeah. When it's time to do the transaction, do the transaction. So I'm looking for a price. I want to price it straight away. That's why we built buddy, make it really easy. Go to as many buys as possible. It takes 15 seconds to load it up and it goes to the buyers and you get transact, you get prices back and you can negotiate, but on the other side, in between that, there is a time to have those conversations. So I would often be on the phone to buyers finding out how I can optimize my parcels better. So for example, I'm buying electric motors on a daily basis. So I pick up the phone and I phone my buyers. Or my buyer, one of them, and I go, Hey, just out of interest, the last few passes that have supplied you, what could I do better? Right? I'm, I'm up against somebody at the moment. I'm trying to buy a Basel. He's really aggressive. He's beating my prices. I can't buy it. What do you think he's doing? You know, and it might say, you know, there's some alternators and starters in your material that you could maybe sort out or whatever it could be, or you should at least say that there's a percentage of that, or there's smaller motors and you, you putting it with the bigger motors. Whatever it could be, but I just think that there's a happy medium there. Um, you definitely want them to phone you every time because you are really good at what you do. No doubt. And you will convince them on the phone to say, okay, fine. We agree with one container. Have that container at that price done locked in. Yeah. Um, and you agree because that's what you want, that's your job to But to, to your point. I totally agree. Right. In everything that you do there, there's a spectrum and you wanna find yourself in the middle. Right. Uh, same thing on us. You know, we, once we finished our buy side, we also have to sell. And we're talking to consumers across different times zone across different countries. Uh, we're getting calls at 1am. I'm not taking all those calls. I'm doing a lot of my sales via WhatsApp. Right. Yeah. I totally get it. So what you're saying is exactly what I'm referring to. That, uh, it doesn't have to be when you're trying to sell the materials. Sometimes actually. When not having those conversations on a phone call might do you better. Um, but go to the conventions, go to the conferences, talk to your buyer in between the sales and have those conversations to understand. I sold you that load. How did it go? I'm trying to buy something else. One of your thoughts on this, right? Or this is kind of how I'm structuring my, my processing and operations, right? Like I'm just taking another example here. Chrome wheels, right? Does it make sense for me to clean my, my Chrome wheels versus keep it dirty? Um, how did those prices compare? Uh, those are all very valuable conversations and doesn't have to be done while selling, but it gives a lot of learning in between. Um, that is, that is valuable. Thank you. You're welcome. Yeah, I think we both agree. I think you've got to constantly be looking to, um, get better. Um, and that is where you say, right, go to those conferences, get on the phone, meet with people. Um, and that's why when we built buddy, we didn't, we wanted to make sure that we, um, introduced parties so that you could still have those conversations when it's transaction time, let's transact, let's get it done. Give me the best price possible. But in between that, we need to be meeting at conferences, going for dinners, going for drinks and finding out how we can be better. No doubt. Um, and what about when a seller is looking for a new buyer? I mean, you must come with a whole story, why people should move to you. What do you think they should be looking for? And I guess, what do you look for as well? When you're trying to find a new buyer? Yeah, so I'll talk about on two fronts. If you're a scrapyard in the U S scrapyard in Europe, and you're dealing with a, with an exporter. Uh, how do you differentiate between them? It's important. I'll start with that, you know, taking the best price. Isn't always the best option in my opinion. Um, but it's not also always the worst, right? There is a pros and cons and it's all comes down to what your risk appetite is and what risk you can take, but what makes a good exporter, uh, is. Hey, do they understand the material they're talking about? Right? Feel free to ask them questions. Be like, Hey, you know, intrinsically, what is this worth? Or what are you looking at during the vetting process? Um, ask them. You know, do they understand something simple? Like what is the difference of yellow brass and red brass? You'd be surprised by the number of, again, talking about myself when I was early on, I didn't know what the difference was, but I can coach you, you know, um, I probably wasn't the best trader at that point. Um, but being able to understand that, I think that makes a big difference. Uh, two, we're talking about being a bank, uh, how well you're capitalized and how financially stable you are is, is huge. Um, so again, if you are a U. S. scrapyard and you're looking at a exporter, regardless of what your credit terms are with the exporter. See if you can get insurance on them, see if you can get, you know, a DMV rating or whatever platform you use to evaluate credit, try to run a report on them. Um, many of the exporters now have many years in the industry. This is not 1980 where, uh, people are coming out of the blue and trying to buy from you. Many of the companies are multimillion dollar companies with many years of experience that have strong financials. Uh, that's might be who you want to prefer doing business with. Um, also evaluating the logistic capabilities. Um, are they working exclusively with, you know, one buyer or one shipping line or one freight forwarder? Um, is it one person running the entire show? Meaning he's the one buying and selling and also the one doing the logistics. When things are easy, probably everyone's good. When things get tough, I think that's where different exporters differentiate themselves. They may have, I keep bookings on hand, ready to go. Um, they may have a dedicated contract with the steamship line and being able to move the material quicker. Um, or at the very least they have an entire team that is handling it. So while they're out trying to buy and sell, there's an entire dedicated team handling the logistics. And, you know, as you gain experience, I'm sure everyone will have. Their preferences. Oh, I like the way they communicate versus the other person. I like the way I can get in touch with the logistics team a little bit quicker versus another company. Um, so that becomes personal preference, uh, but I do think evaluating their financial health is, is critical and evaluating their, their logistic and overall capabilities is, is critical. You know, obviously I like to toot my own horn, but there are a handful of exporters that I believe are, you know, tier one exporters, uh, and then there are others that are good, but may not have the same credibility as some of the more experienced tier one exporters. Um, but to the second part of your question about now looking at who we sell to, looking at buyers overseas, that is a real tricky part of the business, right? Getting, getting, uh, credit insurance or credit reports on a lot of these buyers overseas is not always possible. Um, so that's where, uh, one new data tools coming out to help, um, you know, trade Fox is one example. Um, there are countless others, um, but being able to, uh, see any type of data about how active are they in the business? Who else are they doing business with? Being able to get those references, talk to those references, Hey, who are your suppliers right now? Um, and then getting on the phone with them and saying, Hey, do you do business with this guy? Uh, sounds like with your platform, you do a lot of that vetting yourself. Uh, so you seem very, you know, I'm sure you're very experienced and you can give me some tips as well. I'm always ears open to that because, uh, it's critical to the business. You know, we, we always want to be. Open minded that's another big recommendation is, uh, don't, don't get stuck with who you're dealing with, right? Always keep, be open minded, meet the new people, see what they do, learn about what they're doing. Cause that can open up a lot of doors. But at the same time, make sure you're, you're doing your due diligence and talk to everyone you can to, to figure out, you know, who they are and what they're doing. Yeah. I think you touched on so many good points. I really don't even have much to add to that. Um, just to, you know, sum it up with due diligence, really, it's all about due diligence and just be aware that things can change at any time. So. You know, if you are constantly supplying somebody, just make sure you are always finding out, um, what's happening in that business. And, and, you know, if it's annual credit checks or whatever it might be, um, things change and they can change very quickly. So yeah. Um, all great points. Really, really good. You've obviously been taught quite well. Um, and yeah, nothing for me to add there. Who in the industry do you think is pushing the boundaries or doing some, uh, interesting stuff at the moment and you keeping an eye on, and that also leads me into who would you like to see next on Born Scrappy? Stu, I think right now in this industry, there are a lot of people doing some really cool things. Partially out of. There's a lot of intelligent people in this industry. Also, partially out of necessity. Um, you know, I'm not saying anything novel here when we look at the U. S. market and the massive increase in capacity coming along with aluminum mills with copper mills, refineries, um, similar things are happening overseas. You look at the Indian market. That's a market that's been growing pretty dramatically. Uh, with that, you have companies getting far more professional, increasing their scale, adding furnaces, uh, and, and just even engaging with global partners and a far more sophisticated level. So to go into specifics. You know, I talked to hearth bot. Uh, I don't know if you've ever spoken with him. He's someone I would recommend for the podcast, uh, him and his brother. They're good friends of mine. Uh, very, very intelligent individuals. Um, I get scared cause they're far more intelligent than I am. Um, they're, they're constantly innovating. Um, so they're, I'm sure they can correct me if I'm wrong. Cause I, I couldn't, like I said, they're more intelligent. So I only understand 50 percent of what they explained to me, but they, they have, they're experimenting with tolling domestically. They're experimenting with sorting material overseas. Uh, we've partnered in the past, uh, where we experimented with, uh, trying to process Zorba, uh, domestically, um, to, with the intention of still supporting our export markets. Uh, but trying to see if there's a way to have like a processing facility domestically In conjunction with our exporting to make ourselves a better partner to our scrapyards domestically. Um, that's, that's one family, one company that I think, uh, has been growing really, really well and has been really pushing the envelope. Um, and then myself, I am just really, really interested. I, I, I'm an exporter. I'm talking to overseas plants and I'm talking, trying to figure out what material can move overseas. But I think there's a big shift happening with increased regulations with, um, just a lot of frictions that are taking place where more and more people want to keep their scrap within the U S right. Whether that's political, whether that's regulatory, whether that's cultural, it doesn't matter. I feel like there is a push to say, let's keep this crap in the U S and There's so much experimentation going on right now to say, Hey, how can we upgrade Zorba, how can we upgrade old sheet and extrusions and, and how can we keep down the U S and at this state, I think everyone's convinced that will happen. Um, but we're still at a stage where it's very risky. Uh, and you are seeing players that are saying, Hey, I'm willing to take on that risk. Um, so, uh, you know, metal X and Neil Rifkin, he was one of the first people at, uh, the original BYB. And I would love to sit down and talk to him and just understand, Hey, what is going through your mind when you're taking these risks? How do you evaluate these risks? When you're setting up these plants, when you're setting up the, these sort, the, the sorting operations, um, similarly with, with, you know, the Padness family and their company, they're, they're, uh, adding a lot of capabilities, um, just these U S processors that are adding equipment that are experimenting with how to upgrade metal. I find it fascinating. Um, and I think those are the guys that are really, really pushing the envelope right now, uh, within the industry. Yeah. All, all really good people. Couple I'm already speaking to. So expect to see some of them, uh, on the show soon. Fantastic. Yeah. Great, great recommendations. Look, we're running out of time. Um, but before we end, let's just get to know you a little bit better. So give us your favorite TV series or movie. Favorite TV series is an old school one. I'm a big fan of the Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Uh, if anyone met me in high school, they would say I try to imitate, uh, Will Smith my entire life growing up. Uh, I once met somebody completely out of blues, like, Oh, you remind me of a Will Smith. I mean, this is prior to, you know, the recent drama. So that was like the biggest compliment of my life. But, uh, that was, uh, that was definitely a show I've been obsessed with. Good one. Good one. I think when this ends, we'll sing the theme song together. Heck yeah. Um, favorite place to visit? Honestly, I just got back from, uh, Cabo, uh, in Mexico. That was, I went there with my wife. That was one of the best trips I ever had. I think that the, just the scenery and it was just so beautiful there. Really, really good food. Uh, fantastic weather. So definitely recommend that place. Um, I don't know how much you read, but favorite book, you know, I don't read that much. Um, while I was preparing for this, I listened to Vishal's podcast and funny enough, the book he mentioned is the book I'm just started. So yeah, unreasonable hospitality. So maybe that'll be my recommendation next time we talk. Uh, but I'm on page like three. So I don't know just yet. Great first three pages. Love it. You must, everybody must read the first three pages. Um, have you got a, um, favorite quote? Uh, you know, favorite quote, this is not a deep quote. It's not, it's not necessarily by anyone, but something I've always tried to live by. It's, uh, don't let anyone question your effort. Um, I feel like, you know, anything you do in life, there's, there's always an opportunity to question, you know, your output, your production. But if you're putting in the sweat equity, um, and, and you're, you're working on things that are hard to work on, not just the easy things, but you're, you are without question, working hard on it, uh, you will reap the rewards. Um, but. It's, it's hard, it's hard to have people not question your effort. Cause it's always very easy. Like, Oh, he didn't work hard enough. Um, and if you're putting in that level of effort where you leave no room for doubt that no one's questioning the effort there, I think the rewards will come. So that's always something I've tried to kind of live by. I always love, um, The effort behind the scenes is my big thing. So I love to be the guy that's working when everybody else is sleeping or nobody else is seeing that work. And that's always like my trigger for, um, you know, if you're going to be successful, you're going to be the person that, um, when no one else is looking. You don't go and sit and watch Netflix when no one else is looking. That's when you really grinding, because whether it's in sport, you know, athletics, whether it's in, um, business, that's where you become successful. It's those few minutes or few hours every single day, um, that will make you a champion. Yeah. And you just got back from Singapore and working through the jet lag. So clearly you've done a hundred percent. Abby, this has been great. Thank you so much for coming on born scrappy, mate. Absolutely. Really appreciate you having me. We'll see you soon. Cheers, mate. Bye.