S3E7: Leading with integrity with Marc Schupan of Schupan & Sons

In this week's episode, I chat with Marc Schupan, the CEO of Schupan & Sons. The business was started in 1968 and it has remained a family business all this time and now employs over 600  people.

Marc has spent 50 years in the metal recycling industry and has been recognised in the industry and beyond for his extraordinary achievements. He was shortlisted as a national finalist in the EY Entrepreneur of the Year Awards in 2022 and he won the prestigious Harbour Aluminum Gene Greenberg Award for the world’s top aluminum executive in 2023.

In today's episode, we talk about:

👉  Timeless lessons passed down
👉  The need to insure and hedge
👉  Making a difference
👉  Leading with ethics
👉  And much more!

Listen to the full episode. Wherever you stream your podcasts.

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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.


COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

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Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I chat with Mark Shupan, the CEO of Shupan. Shupan was started in 1968 and has remained a family business all this time and now employs over 600 people. Mark was shortlisted as a national finalist in the EY Entrepreneur of the Year Awards in 2022, and he won the prestigious Harbour Aluminum Gene Greenberg Award in 2023. In today's episode, we talk about always insure or hedge, ethical companies, culture, service, and so much more. So let's jump into it with Mark, but first, intro. Hey Mark, welcome to Born Scrappy. How are you? Glad, uh, glad to be here and I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you. Thanks Mark. I, um, I just got off an airplane, uh, about an hour ago and I've come straight to the studio to, to get this recorded. I've been excited to, um, Chat to you for a while. Um, you've been doing this, uh, in the industry for, for longer than most of us. So, uh, I can only imagine based on the stories I have and that I hear from others, you have some, uh, some incredible stories over the times. Well, after 50 years, uh, you certainly have a lot of different things that happen, uh, either with you, to you or for you or whatever, but, uh, it's, it's been a good run for sure. Mark, take us back 50 years ago. So how did you land up in the metal recycling industry? Um, and take us through that journey a little bit. Okay. Reasonably succinctly. Um, went to school to Michigan state university, picked up a poly sci degree, which if I would have taken looking at it over again, I would have taken French cooking, fly tying, and putting for the value of that poly sci degree. But I also went an extra year and picked up a teaching certification, which was, uh. Was the right thing to do, and it was around Vietnam. A lot of things are going on. Um, so I, I taught. For 3 years, thought history and government and economics, and I did a class on the actually the. Enlightenment period lock full tier. So. All these farm kids really needed that, but I coach football, basketball and baseball and. I was single and traveling the summer. So it was a great experience. Um, did I want to be in the metals industry? No, I had worked before my father had run, had been general manager of a larger company. Not really large, but a larger one in Kalamazoo where I live. And he had a chance to buy it and he had two partners and at 48, he was going to go ahead with these other partners. Buy out the company where he had been 17 years as a operations manager and the last minute they, uh, decided not to sell it. The, so he decided to go out on his own. And again, I'd worked some summers, everything from. You know, we were very small driving a truck calling on potential new customers. But whatever it took, but we were very small in those days. Um, but I give him a lot of credit, uh, with 2 younger sisters, a younger brother. Um, we didn't have a lot of money, but he had the courage to go out on his own at 48 and start something with a 10, 000 square foot facility. With no heat, a couple of trucks and a very small. Basis of customers, but he was a shirt and tie guy. He didn't drive a truck or this or that or whatever, but. He was a great mentor, but did I want to be in the middle scrap? No, you know, what happened was. I came home, took a leave of absence from teaching and said, I'll work because he and I got along good. We're really good friends and I know. It seemed to have a lot of stress. And we back that time, we only had six employees. I said, I'll work for you for one year. And then I'm going to go to law school, which originally that's what I thought, or I'm going to try to go out and coach college basketball, which I've been very successful coaching. And I really think that's what I would have done, but I would not have stayed in the end of that little scrap business. And what happened was literally, I came home. Three weeks after I was home, I got a call from my father. He was at breakfast and said, I'll see you in a half an hour. I'll be in. And that was the last I ever talked to him. He had a massive stroke at 53 and died. And literally, um, a few days later, Sunday, the, uh, this was in August. So it's been 50 years, you know, basically the funeral was on Sunday and Monday morning I was at work. So I always joke I reached my level and competency very young that I was 26 at the time. But again, a mother that was 46. 3 younger siblings, and we were not wealthy by any stretch. And so. You learn a lot about stress. On the stress he went through after I walked in his shoes, I talk about it, but. The 1st year 1975 was a recession here too. So. I learned a lot. And, uh, you know, it was 1 of those open up in the morning close at night. We were open a half day on Saturdays for, like, some retail. And then I did paperwork some days on Sunday. So. 1st, 1st, few years, I, uh, I worked a lot. For sure, but, uh, you do what you have to do. So, and then from that, this was 1974. When you're young, you try things, some work, some don't, we've tried a lot of things over the years. And again, some have worked, but in general, the key is, and we can talk about later is, uh, I was able to track really excellent people. That we're better at a lot of things that I will probably wasn't. I wasn't not a finance guy or, uh, I should have taken accounting as opposed to poli sci, but, uh, you learn a lot over the years. And if somebody said, well, you've been successful, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. Well, I've been successful because I've been able to, again, surround myself with very talented people that have been extremely loyal over the years. And have stayed with me and helped me to grow. And we've all prospered, you know, reasonably, uh, I believe. Uh, so I feel very, really fortunate that I was able to do that. And I like, the other thing is I'm a competitive person. And when we started, there was about 10 scrap operations in Kalamazoo. And I can promise you, nobody stuck out their hand to try to help us survive that 1st year, but you do what you have to do. And, uh, I learned a lot and I continue there. I still learn every day, but a lot of changes in our industry in the last 50 years. That's for sure. And the directions of what we do and what we don't do and areas that we handle now, and it is obviously a different world. What does it look like now for you, Mark? Um, you know, talk us through the size of the company and what you do on a day to day basis. Well, I definitely raised the overhead over the last 50 years. Uh, we have about 650 employees now. Uh, we have facilities in, as far as outside of Michigan, major one in Elkhart, Indiana. We have a plant in Des Moines, Iowa. We have distribution operations for our aluminum. Host there, which is based in Kalamazoo and Dayton and Toledo, because we handle the bottle bill in Michigan, the recycling, we have a major plant. In the metro Detroit area, and a pretty good size 1 in Grand Rampas, Michigan. And multiple facilities in Kalamazoo. And then we have a, uh, aluminum processing operation. We opened in the last year in Russellville, Kentucky, uh, work on that green aluminum and 1 in Kalamazoo. Both of them. 1 is 100, 000 square feet. And the other is 125 was state of the art equipment and efficiencies. And we know we're, we've made investments for the future that we believe are the right ones. I think we have, 22 facilities, buildings, or whatever we work out of. And then our trading group, I mean, they're all over the, they're all over the country and we do have an office in Mexico city, so, uh, it's a lot different than just when we were, had 10, 000 square feet in Kalamazoo, Michigan. So, uh, definitely a different world. And we, we did business, I think last year in 24 countries. So again, that's a business where you got to work hard, you got narrow margins, but I think For us, we've have certain things that have been, um, our modus operandi, how we handle, how we handle things, our culture, our values that have basically, I think, been why we've been successful. Uh, not an easy industry, but a lot of great people. And at this point in time, there's a number of companies that always want to do stuff with us and are always looking to try to figure is there a way they can partner with us. And I think the biggest thing is, is because we've developed trust. Over the years that if we say, we're going to do something, we don't need 10 pages of. Legally is a handshake and we have never. Not honored a commitment, even if it hurt us. For quite a while, because my parents taught me 3 things. Pretty much there are 3 things they want to teach me integrity, which is whatever you say, you always honor that. You always tell the truth. Tenacity, when you get knocked down, you get your, you get up and sit and whine, fight your way through it. And then the last one is compassion. That you, uh, how you treat other people, whether it be your employees or your community or your customers. And we're not here to outsmart people. We're here to work with them. So, and it's seems to work, not always, but most of the time. And Mark, before we get into some specific stories around, about your journey, um, currently you are still in the business day to day, and do you have family members, um, in the business? Oh, that I do. That I do. In fact, it's Chupan and Sons. My dad wanted that. It was a different name, but I know my dad would have liked Chupan, so about two years after he passed away, I changed the name to Chupan and Sons. And then eventually, my sister worked in the business too at one time. And then now my daughter does too, but as far as family, my son in law runs a distribution manufacturing. He's responsible for 3 plants on a few 100 people. I think 250 or something. And he's he's great. He's been with a 20 years, I think. And then, uh, my youngest son. Just move from he worked in Los Angeles for us for about 8 years. And he is going to be the new CEO in the next couple of years. And he's excellent. I think he just turned 37 and he's getting married in the spring. So I'm thrilled about that. My biological clock has been ticking my grip with my daughter. She's the oldest she's 45. And I have an 18 year old grandchild and a 16 year old grandson and a 13 year old granddaughter. And then, uh, let's see, I have another son that's, uh, 42. Jacob, who's great and he works in our electronics division, but doesn't doesn't necessarily. Run a lot of things, but he's really good too. So families definitely. been involved and will continue as a family business. We could sell it, we get people on by it every five minutes. But I, I think I made a promise to our employees that we didn't build it to sell it. And um, with our culture more successful, we share it. And I think, uh, I'm hoping that this will be around another 20, 30 years, but very hard to, um, manage from the grave. So I'm, I'm not sure. But my goal has never been to be the richest guy in the graveyard. So if it was just money, I guess we, we'd sell it and whatever. But right now we, we all work. We, we make pretty decent livings and we built it into my first year. I'll tell you where my first year in business, 1974, our sales were 790, 000 for the year. So anyway, a little different now, just a little, but yeah. You obviously, um, especially from early on, you would have had such a role in the company where you would have done just about every role there is in the industry, but let's specifically talk to trading. Is there ever, has there been, you know, one or two experiences that you've had when trading the buying or selling it's had such a significant, um, uh, learning curve for you or something that you will never forget and you instill it in everybody else? Well, you know, you hope so, but, uh, you learn from your mistakes, hopefully, and challenges. And we always talk about challenges being opportunities. Um, you know, can you take this lemon and make lemonade or whatever? But, uh, when we first started, I, I bought, I sold, I loaded, I unloaded, I, you know, uh, whatever, whatever. But when we talk about trading now, we have a trading division. That's very substantial. Very substantial part of our company, uh, with a number of employees scattered or in. I don't know, Philadelphia, Cleveland, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis. Nashville, L. A. Mexico City. Houston, uh, there's probably a few other than I'm missing, but. Those guys work out of there. Um, what significant things happen. We're very, we're very large in the beverage container side. Um, we are. I think I can say it without, we're number one in the United States in volume there. Uh, whether it's buying, I think we buy in all 10 deposit states and, and we buy from I think 300 guys that are in the scrap business, our trading group. But a number of years ago, we were the number one supplier for a very large company. Which I won't mention right now, but they're, they're still very large in the Beverly side and we had done business with them. We're their number 1 supplier. And they were, we'd heard rumors, they're having trouble paying their customers and this and that. But I think since we're the number 1 customer, we got paid. And I've had somebody there, they felt certainly going to keep an eye out for us and whatever. Well, 1 day, I got a call. I don't know if it was their president. Might have been their CFO. Mark, um, we can't pay you. Uh, nothing was over 45 days and it was 17 million, which for our company was a lot of money. Um, and it did get the attention of the bank I was dealing with here too. Uh, so anyway, long story short, uh, what I learned was a, uh, they did not go bankrupt. I went down and I put a deal together over two years and long story with somebody that was supporting them. Uh, that was going to continue to, and I met with him and, uh, we put a deal together and we got paid every cent plus interest over two years. And we were their number one supplier and we met a pretty good deal there. But what it is, it taught me, A, never put yourself in that position again. Either you better have those receivables insured or hedged or whatever, but I never wanted to do that again. That was a major learning experience and if I was a public company, they probably would have fired me deservingly, but it's funny how it turned out. It's almost like a Harvard case study in a positive way of how we took something and we still do. A lot of business with this company, which has been sold before that. Oh, not too long ago. I think we're still there. Probably your number one supplier in the nation. Um, so, you know, you, you, you, you live and learn that that's on the negative side. So So when you, when you now are looking to sell, um, you, you spoke about either insured or hedged or whatever it might be, what, what are the kind of important factors that are influencing who your company now sells to, or even since then, I guess, how did you change things? Well, again, if you look at, you go back over my 50 years, and you look at how many ingot makers for the secondary ingot business were here that, that are gone, that went bankrupt, that, you know, for different reasons for what was going on internationally or, or what happened with the auto industry or how they changed things or whatever. And, uh, you know, we've had instances where somebody says, Oh yeah, we were, we're good, we can do this, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I think if anything, I've learned the main thing when you're dealing with companies is really to know, you know, ethically what, what kind of companies are there, there's somebody that you can work with, I have a thing on my, in my office here that says, um, it says there's nothing nearly as clever as honesty and sincerity. Uh, are nearly as clever. And I think it's really true. Um, there's people that you can do millions on a handshake. And there's people that if you had 20 pages of legalese, if their minds or hearts are how to get around doing the right thing. And I use this a lot Mark Twain always says you never go wrong doing the right thing. And I think that's a nice to use it a lot but Whether it's our employees, our communities, our consumers or whatever, uh, they know they can trust us and we're not always right. And if, but if we make a mistake, we don't hide behind something. We, we basically say, Hey, we did something, we screwed up and let's, here's how we're going to fix it. Not hide from it where that's not always the same modus of operandi by a lot of companies. Uh, but I think that's helped us. And we're. We're a pretty good sized company now. I think in aluminum, I imagine with what we do between, we have a big industrial base, I think we have about 600 industrial plants we handle primarily aluminum and with our trading group and with the beverage side, I think we're probably in the top, I would imagine top five in the country in volume of aluminum scrap that we, uh, control or buy or sell or whatever. I don't know exactly, but, um, But I think we're somewhere close to that. Uh, but, again, I have a really good outside board member from the University of Chicago who's been a great mentor, a guy named Jim Schrager, teaches um, strategy at the University of Chicago and I came in one time many years ago and we're really small. I think we're 50 million in sales or seven, I don't know, really small. And when he got done and he sat me down, I said, Mark, do you want to feel good? Or do you want to get better? And I've never forgot that. And he's still. On my board, so when we have a board meeting, I always tell him I'm good today, but, um, yeah, but, you know, the idea there's so much there's so much to learn. There's, there's, there's some positive, really positive stories to the things we did. I. Here's here's another more, a little more negative. Why not? 1 year we were waiting. We had a big. Um, beverage containers to, uh, to cover, I mean, it was 12, 14 million pound that we want to cover, we had purchased and late fall for next year delivery and all that, and We had a profit, not a big profit, but a decent margin in it. But the Chinese were, uh, it was their holidays. So they were off for two weeks or something. Well, every time, if you look at over the years, they have come off their holidays. Generally the LME would go up two, three cents or something, or there'd be some positive changes. Well, this time it didn't, we didn't sell. The 10 or 12 million at X profit we would have had. And so we just sort of wrote it out as the market continued to go down for the, I mean, we had a sell material, whatever, but yeah, it was the pigs and hogs theory a little bit, you know, that, uh, you know, sometimes you're better to take a small or medium profit than try to make it into something that maybe you got a little bit more, but, but again, there's other times when, uh, Even when, with that 17 million problem I had, I had done some hedging, uh, and I hit the top of the market at the market was 3000 or something. And, uh, it turned out I helped get me through it. I had a trading company sending me a million dollars every month for a number of years, because we were on the right side of that trade. Now, is that really smart? No, I was lucky. In fact, the trader that I work with is it, I mean, the market after I did the deal two days later had dropped, started to drop and he said, how did you know? And, and what are you going to say? You know, sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. So, I mean, you know, there's, there's other stories somebody else would give you where we took a chance on a few things and, you know, I think I pretty much, nobody will tell you that I'm not willing to try, try something new. And if you look at our businesses. It's really diverse now. Uh, scrap certainly is where we started, but we manufacture some pretty sophisticated parts, primarily aluminum, but it's kind of cool because we might be, uh, supplying the raw material for the company. That's sending us material. That we make the parts out of, and then maybe where we sell it, maybe we buy their scrap and it goes, I mean, it really is a talk about circular economy. But we close the circle on a lot of things and I think that's been good for us companies. For example, if I went to an extruder and want to buy. Their scrap or part of it, if we're buying new material from them. Why wouldn't they want to do business with us as opposed to just somebody else who just wants to give them a price. So, yeah, that's a positive. So Mark, that makes me think about, you know, in order to be one of the biggest suppliers of aluminum in, in the U S means you have to be buying a lot. So how have you changed or how have you grown that strategy? What have you done? What's your strategy behind buying, you know, How do you open up multiple yards and new facilities? And what have you taught your guys to? As far as multiple yards on the scrap site, if you really just look at the scrap, yes, well, Elkhart in Kalamazoo are the majors and then one in Des Moines, they handle a fair amount of scrap too, but that's primarily, uh, it's a little different. Yeah. It's, they're doing stuff with, you know, aluminum, paper, glass. Um, it's kind of like a MRF almost, and I'm not used to that, but we're very fortunate. We hired a guy named Andy McKee, who was with Novelis for a long time, key guy. And we sat down and we decided if we were going to have a, what I would call a trading division that we had to have somebody really good. And so we hired him. And basically I said, Andy, you go out and you find the best people in the industry. I didn't say how much to pay him. I didn't say I should. Find them, then let's put them on the team. And he's done a phenomenal job doing that. People have come to us from other major, they might be consumers or whether it's a novellas or whatever. We've got people that have been with Coca Cola, Alcoa, Novell, you know, just, they worked with us on the other side and they liked our culture and they know how we do things and they know if we're successful that we share. Um, Which we do, and so I think that, you know, when they talk about culture beating strategy, you do need strategy, but. I do believe culture is the most important because, you know, and I know. That for about 80 percent of the purchases or. Acquisition acquisitions or mergers 80 percent of them really don't ever accomplish what they think they're going to. In general, you can trace it back to the cultures don't match. A number of years ago, I was getting close to buying a pretty good sized company, not huge, but maybe 50 million in sales. And nice, nice, I like the guy, da, da, da, da, da, but as time went on, and we would have fit in a number of ways, we would have been 60, 40 owners, but the cultures just weren't going to match. And As the goalposts kept changing, so to speak. And he said something like, well, I pay people enough so they don't quit their jobs. Well, that's not what we do here. We have a clinic for employees. We have a gas allowance for our lease. We've had for, I don't know how long, 90 a month for each person. And that's hourly. We, there's, there's a saying that's on my wall that my group, my wife's grandmother. Loved and she was a, like a, she's like a midwife and farmer's daughter and all that, whatever it says services, the rent we pay for the space. We occupy while we're on this earth and I think. I think it's really true. It's a true statement. And my mom used to say, it's easier to give somebody a shirt off your back. If you haven't have another 1, but if we're ever successful, we didn't grow up wealthy. She says, I expect you're going to do something that's going to make a difference in other people's lives. And so that was the kind of mentoring that I had, you know, from my family and try to continue that and. If I look at the last 50 years, things that we've been able to accomplish. For for employees for our communities and whatever, and. Um, some of the, we started a school for. 15 to 22 year olds that couldn't make it in the public schools 8 years ago. Um, that's been very successful. There's, there's a lot of opportunities out there, but the more successful you are, the more you can do. And, you know, that's, I kind of look at it that way too. And, um, this has been a challenge here. I'll tell you, but in general, you know, small margins, but, you know, we've grown to the point where a small margin on a lot of volume is still something. So, absolutely. Um, What about data? I mean, data is a buzzword at the moment and data driven decision making. And what is your company, what sort of data do you, do you use to help you make better decisions? Well, I generally don't flip coins anymore. No. Um, it's funny. I just, two weeks ago, I was a class for a week at Stanford on AI, and I'm about the least technical guy in the world. Um, If it was up to me, communications would be smoke singles. Um, but I learned a lot there'cause I, I didn't wanna be the village idiot. In fact, the first book you read is AI for Dummies, and then you had a couple other books you had to read, but it, it was a good class. But when you look at, at trying to make decisions, that data is so important or can we at least understand, you know, sometimes, I know you go back a number of years and we were less sophisticated and. We were doing a fair amount more Ferris at the time. And we weren't very successful at that time. And the only thing that made us less successful is if we to handle more volume. Based on the way we did things, I mean, we're going back a long time. But, you know, once we finally got the information we needed, I would say, hey. You know, unless you're going to be huge or you're going to put in your own water shredder or, you know, whatever, uh, a lot of the industrial plants that are handled, it's always very competitive and, you know, their people are willing to work for very, very little and hope the markets, I don't, I don't know how they, but so, uh, data's, uh, we have a really, uh, good IT department here. I, I don't know how many people, I think there may be 12, 14 people, but. Uh, when we decide to make a decision, we truly, I mean, not that you want to do some things, uh, that are from the heart, so to speak, but we do try to get the best information we can, especially today. Um, ignorance is not bliss. And if you gotta know where you're making it or you're not making up when we look at new opportunities. And I think there was a thing about investments and things. Well, I, a lot of people in our industry sometimes, well, okay, we want to buy this 350, 000, you know, piece of equipment and they can debate back and forth in it, but I look at people, they're the investments that are really going to drive things. So when we invest in people, whether it's hourly or this or that, I think we're ensuring our future. By doing these, these kinds of things, you know, sometimes you can do more, sometimes you can do less, but I think if your employees realize that, um, I was, I sat in one time on a, uh, At the, uh, idea conference in Colorado. Yeah, and Aspen, uh, I snuck in somebody famous. He said. Nobody ever washes a rental car and I started to think about that. Nobody ever watches a rental car. Well, if everybody owned their job. If it was theirs, and they knew that by taking care of it. It would be, they'd be more successful. The company would be. Then that's that's the kind of environment we wanted. Well, you know, it's just my job. I'm just punching in and you know, till I can go home and whatever. I mean, not that everything we do is fun or anything, but, um, I think people realize that they're important and what the, you know, the things they do are important, uh, they'll, they'll get, they'll wash that car every day. I think that makes a huge difference. Yeah, and I think the same, I think you probably get a lot of that from your sporting background. I think it's the same in sport that the best dynasties have actually got this, um, this ownership and being a part of something bigger than themselves. That actually brings these teams together. I've just finished reading a book by James Kerr called Legacy, and he followed around the all black rugby team for many years, and they were at the time, you know, probably the greatest dynasty in any sport. Um, you just couldn't beat them. And it's all about, you know, so much of it is about, um, Being a part of something and having that ownership in it. Um, and it's the exact same when we talk about businesses and, and I just look at your journey and you said earlier about how you coached sports and that's probably what you would have done. And, um, I'd be in the hall of shame. I hear you. Tell me, you spoke about equipment purchases, um, and looking at different options when you've grown your business. What sort of capital structures did you use? And it's good for, you know, for the listeners to get an idea. Do you, do you recommend, um, debt finance, financing and all yourself selling equity, you know, if people are looking to grow their business, what do you recommend the best way to buy new capital? Well, I think everything is a little different. I think you have to say, see how are you going to use it? What's the timeline? What can you actually afford? Fortunately, over the years, when we put a lot of money back into the company, never try to, as I say, pull. You know, something way more than I should so that when we wanted to do something, we had the funds to do it and we are strong financially. So, we have good credit now. Sometimes we have a. You might lease with an option to buy the thing is over the last, I don't know how many years I look at this equipment out here. I'm like, wow. Those three trucks are worth as much as a company was when I started or better, but I take pride, you know, you got your name on it. A, uh, you want safe equipment for people to drive, whether it's driving or whatever. And if it's, if it's good equipment too, then they're going and they're going to take better care of it. Um, They're going to have ownership. And, um, you know, everything, everything is a little different. We have a lot of LLCs that are separate from the company on our buildings and facilities and whatever, and, uh, we're not, we're lucky, um, generally banks are, are coming to us all the time, wanting our business. Um, I know, I know what happens, uh, You know, if all of a sudden you're not doing that, well, I remember reading a book, uh, a man in full, you ever hear of that book by Thomas Wolfe? Well, it's a story of a, of a real estate, but basically about a guy had been really successful and he decided to build a, a huge complex outside of Atlanta, as far as shopping and hotels and that, anyway, long story short, it didn't do well. And it showed you how banks treat you when you're doing well, which is flying you to go skeet shooting or shoot something to where you have a definition, uh, uh, when you're, when you have to pay your bills, which is not nearly as positive for sure. But, but it was interesting, uh, from that standpoint, which I never want to be in, uh, but I have a fiduciary responsibility. And we borrow money because we pay our bills way faster than we get paid. So we're always going to be, uh, probably borrowing money just for what, but the nice thing is we have lots of credit and again, by paying our bills on time. And in the 50 years I've been here, we've never, no matter what, not paid our bills on time. And I think, you know, that's a good reason for people to want to do business with you. That's for sure. Mark. When you decide there's a plan, there's a project to buy a new piece of equipment, invest in something, do you have some form of, um, process that you go through internally? You mentioned you have a, we, we, we, we do. And our board wouldn't be involved with that, but let's say you're the president of our industrial scrap division, because we have a president there, we have a president for the trading group, we have a president for loan distribution, we have a president for everything but, uh, tree planning, I think, but, um, anyway, we got lots of. But, you know, uh, Gary Curtis would come to me and he'd say, I mean, there's a point where, you know, I want to be, I'm not involved in everything. I'm not a micromanager, but you know, if you got, if it's over, say 150, 000 or something like that, they're going to, they're going to say, okay, here's why we want to do this, here's what we're replacing, here's the efficiency. Here's what we believe will be a savings by, you know, having something, you don't want a piece of equipment that's got a, you know, 10 year payback. I mean, I, you know, even in purchasing companies, which we've done in this and that you look at, you know, what, what really does make sense is return on, on your capital and, and again, we're in a pretty narrow margin business, but I think the whole idea is you have to be open minded. I read at Harvard years ago. Um, blue water strategy, blue ocean strategy. Yeah. Blue ocean. So the idea of, do you want to swim with everybody else or do you want to find someplace where it's unique, at least for a while, uh, if it's good enough, somebody else will do it anyway, but sometimes maybe you can buy by time or whatever, and I'm a big hockey fan. My kids, I had two kids play college hockey. I played from 30 to 45 till I had my first back surgery. Not that I was very good compared to my sons. They were really good, but Wayne Gretzky, which everybody's used a million times and we have, we did it. We use it for as fashionable as we don't go, you know, I say, I don't go where the puck is. I go where it's going to be. And that's what we try to do with our business to try to, okay, what is this? How we got in the beverage business? I mean, in Michigan was a state. And we first got in, my only competitors were Anheuser Busch, uh, Alcoa, and Reynolds. They had all the business between all the wholesalers there. We had zero, but we had some equipment which was better, would be better for the wholesalers. We knew our services would be better. We were a lot more agile, I'll put it that way. And once people found out they could trust us, we became, uh, one by one very popular. I'll leave, I'll leave it at that. But, uh But when we first started in my, my bank, well, you're going to compete with these guys. I said, well, I think I can. And it took, it took a while to do it, to, you know, build that reputation. And then we go to all these different events and I think my wife was with me and everybody likes her. So, but, uh, you can't be afraid to try things. I had really good people that worked with me and for me that, that, uh, we went, I don't know how many years with never having a beer wholesaler down for more than 24 hours with equipment. We had spare equipment, which we could move in within a, and this equipment was 25 to 40, 000 a piece, this equipment. We probably had 70 of these pieces out in the field, but these guys, the material was going to come back to the wholesaler every day, so he needed to have something that worked, so, I think that itself, and we built great relationships over there. When we first started, there were like 220 beer wholesalers in Michigan. And now I think there's like 42, been a lot of consolidations, but we got great relationships. Their, their kids are doing business with my kids and, you know, so that's, that's a positive. You actually made mention of Wayne Gretzky's quote where he goes with the puck is, which made me think about also your stories about, um, you miss a hundred percent of the shots you don't take. I believe that was also Wayne Gretzky. And that's kind of, you know, related to what you're talking about, taking that opportunity, taking the chance. Don't try. Uh, and some things you won't, I mean, I haven't been perfect. I know there's some things we've done it, but if you, if your track record is 8. 5 out of 10, As long as that 1. 5 doesn't, uh, destroy the 8. 5, you're, you're probably going to be all right as you get older, too. I think nobody, uh, some people, I think I've gotten a lot more conservative. Maybe other people disagree. And now I have to make a decision. My, my family owns part of the company. And so we sit down and it's not just because Mark wants to do this. I actually have to convince them now. No, it's not. It's good. And the nice thing about my kids is, you know, nobody's just got their hand out. They, uh, they all want to earn what they're doing. They, they realize, I mean, if we sold tomorrow, nobody ever have to work, but that's not what we're going to do. And, um, what's his name? You know, Berkshire Hathaway. Yeah, I read a lot of his stuff, but it was, uh, money will buy you happiness if you've earned it. And I, and I, and I look around at people with trust babies and this and that, that aren't doing anything or whatever. And I, I don't know, I truly believe that, that when you're in something, it means something and, you know, our family's doing fine, but we're not out looking to see if we can buy a big yacht or something. It's just not how we operate. I like Mother Teresa's, one of my favorite sayings of hers, which is, you know, the more people you have, you got a few challenges once in a while, but she, she said, um, I know God will only give me what I can handle, but I wish he didn't trust me so much. Now I have days that I feel like that too next, you know, but, uh, in general, I'm very fortunate because I have an incredible support group. Yeah. Um, look, we've, we could probably keep going for days. Talking and I'd love to hear all your stories, but we're running out of time very fast. So I need to end off with a few questions. One is who would you like to listen to next on Born Scrappy? I don't know. Metal Exchange has got some really good people. And I, of companies that I look at and that I respect and have watched them over the years, what they've been able to do as far as, diversify and the different things that they're I'd say, uh, their CEO. I think he'd be a good one. I mean, it's a family business. His father, I don't know if it's his father or grandfather or whatever, but they have, they've built a good reputation. they're not only in the scrap side and trading and whatever they're extruders, they have their own melting facilities. I know them well. Yeah. They're, they're, they're, they're, they're great people know, you see a lot of good guys and not so good guys in our industry come and go and whatever, but they're a company. That have has done this the right way from an ethical standpoint. Again, they're bright people and, uh, uh, have a great deal of respect for them. Um, Mark, I need to finish off, but I just want to ask you some personal questions quickly, favorite TV series or movie. I'll tell you, there's a movie that I don't know if anybody's, um, I think it was called kingdom of God, which is a story, of defending Jerusalem. during the Crusades an excellent movie. Favorite place, favorite place to visit? Oh, that's hard. I've been really fortunate. I think for our anniversary, we've been married 48 years. My daughter gave me her son. Uh, one of those things where you put pins in countries. And I think it was, I think we've been to 48 countries or something. I think. Favorite trips, not favorite country. I was in Kenya and Tanzania a number of years ago. Um, on all the safaris with, with, uh, 6 other couples. I thought that was pretty amazing I've been to almost, kind of, you name it, uh, we've probably been there. I've been to, uh, Just about every place you can think of, from the Galapagos to Turkey to, whatever, but, um, The safaris, um, were my, my favorite place by far. So, um, have you got a favorite book? I really like the book. Think again. Think again. Uh, I think I actually read that. Yeah. Well, a lot of people have and basically question, question what your, your thinking is, right? You've learned all your whole life and are you willing to hold your mind to other facts that may make it change. I'm going to ask you for a favorite quote to end the episode. I think real succinctly, I think it's Mark Twain's, um, you never go wrong doing the right thing. absolutely love that. Mark, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us on Born Scrappy. Thanks Mark. Cheers.