S2E20: Better every day with Sackers CEO David Dodds

In today's episode, I’m joined by David Dodds.

David is the owner operator and CEO at Sackers. Sackers is a UK based metal recycler operating a shredder as well as a copper granulation plant.

He was born scrappy and has decades of experience under his belt.

In today’s episode we talk about:

👉 Making money on the buy
👉 Avoiding the blame game
👉 When pricing matters
👉 Modelling for capex
👉 And much more

Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.
The only marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies.

https://www.tradebuddy.io/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy/


WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.


COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by David Dodds. David is the own operator and CEO at Sackers. Sackers is a UK based metal recycler operating a shredder as well as a copper granulation plant. I've always enjoyed chatting with David at the different conferences around the world and this episode is no different. In this episode, we talk about making money on the buy side, avoiding the blame game when pricing matters, modeling for CapEx and so much more. So let's get straight into it with David. But first intro

BORN SCRAPPY S2E20 --- DAVID DODDS 01: 1:09

Hi Dave, welcome to Born Scrappy. How are you? Hey, Stu. Yeah. All good, mate. All good. How are you? Yeah. Good. Thanks. Did you notice that was my more professional voice, how I changed from chatting before, and then all of a sudden I realized I was like, Oh, okay. Hi. And welcome to Born Scrappy. I noticed that it wasn't your, it wasn't your normal patter. Yeah, exactly. Dave. Great to have you, have you on the show. Um, we like, thanks for inviting me. Yeah, We last chatted in Kolkata. I think it was at the MRI, I had a good chat and that was when I said, we're going to get you on, I want to hear some of these stories, don't waste them all on me now, let's record them all. So we can all have a listen. So yeah, this will be fun, Dave. So thanks, man. I'll try to make it as interesting as I can. You're a good man. I'm sure it will be. Dave, talk us through how you got involved. In the metal recycling industry and a little bit of background on Sackers for those globally that don't know your company. Sure. Okay. Yeah. It's very interesting. Um, well, very interesting to me and hopefully to all the listeners. Yes. So when I, uh, when I left school, My dad was running a scrap business and I didn't really know too much about it. And it was the sort of place I would go down on a Saturday to get wheels for my bike. Um, men, you know, get the new wheels, get the chain and build bikes from scrap. I had no idea what the business was about. Zero idea. All I knew it was. Just free of cycling parts. So whenever my bike broke, that's where it was free of charge. And that's where I just went down and fixed all my bikes and didn't really give it a thought about what the business was. So when I was leaving school, I actually wanted to go into the RAF. So I went down to the local RAF station, local RAF office in Ipswich for a sort of a first interview. I think this is, I'd be interested in it. What can you, what can you do? What's available? What sort of suits me? And came out of there, I'll be absolutely frank with you, didn't go any further, any further than that. I can't remember Whether it was a thanks, but no thanks, David, or a, this is what you've got to do come back in a couple of years when you've got some proper education behind you, you know, when you've got a degree or something like that, I don't know. But it was, um, it was a thanks, but no thanks. See you later. So I went back to mum and dad and said, Okay, that didn't go so well. Dad said, Okay, well come down and just work in the yard, just see how you, see how you, and I was a bit reluctant at first, but then I thought, ah, bite bits, I can fill my, fill the shed up Bits for my bike and I absolutely loved it from day one. The people, the people, the camaraderie, the, and it's different. Crikey, it's 45 years ago. It's different then to what it was now. It was really manual and loved it. Ever since just the, just the, the every day is a different day. No, it just wasn't boring. I actually couldn't wait to get to work. So that's how I got into, got into the scrap business. And then of course, as a bit, as a business, we're, uh, it's four generations, two in the Dodds family. So it's about 97 years old now as a, as a company coming up to its centenary in a few years time. so it's got, it's got a fair bit of heritage around, around the, uh, around his name. Then, uh, going into me, into the business. It was just a go to work, have a load of fun and, you know, on a Friday night, that's when you pay packet was in cash and then in an envelope with a, with a proper receipt and all that. Um, but I used to get my 17 quid for 45 pounds. A 45 hour week and, um, this is absolutely real. Filled up my moped with petrol and there was always a few, um, uh, pennies left over for a few beers with my mates. So I've absolutely perfect. I honestly, in the early days, I just treated it as a job. I didn't really know about the metals, although I was being taught. I didn't know how vast this, the opportunity would be, would become. So got into it a bit more, got to know the metals, got to know the industry a bit more. And then at, when I was 18, so two years later, father packed me off to a aluminium ingot making company in Nottingham, a company called McIntyre's. Not there anymore as a business, although the JMC machinery company still, still runs, but I worked at McIntyre's in their ingot making department, their trading department, the non ferrous shed, and the international department as well. that was probably the beginning of the eye opener of actually going from little ol sackers Um, and then realized, wow, this is really is unbelievable. And I really, really got into it. I lived in the, I lived in the YMCA in the middle of Nottingham. And I'm guessing you got YMCA's over in the United States, in the Young Man's Christian Association. And it was a, it was a very strange place. However, it was full of, full of really different people. And I met some really, really good friends. I was there for about a year and a half. And it was, it was, it was an eye opener and a real education. Not just on the scrap side, but actually just being away, being away from, from home at 18. And similar to the university, I didn't do, I'm not university educated, but my education has just come through the industry. That was the beginning of actually falling in love with this business and with this industry and thinking, wow, this is, there's some real opportunities. So I did my basic training, went back to the family business, went out on the road for five or six years, just looking after contracts, finding new business and learned my people skills there. Some people may say you didn't learn very well, but I, I learned, I learned how to trade, learned how to get factory contracts and things like that. And just carried on that skill and carried on loving it even more. I genuinely, even now at 62, I genuinely love coming to work every day, genuinely love coming to work every day. I got that. When I sat with you in Kolkata, you told me that. And I was like, I'm sure you can hand over things and we'll talk about your son being in the business. And, and I think you have a grandson now as well. So there could be a next generation of Dodds coming through as well, which is exciting. But it came through in our conversation that you still love it. You're not going anywhere. Like you love chatting to people. You love trading every day. You don't want that taken away from you. No, that's true. And my wife would probably agree with that. She doesn't want me at home. I suspect, I don't know. I hope she wants me at home sometimes, but I genuinely just coming. I love going to work and it's not just the people in Sackers. It's actually the people that I'm in contact. You know, Stu, we met for the first time in, uh, as you say, in Calcutta. I'd seen the podcasts and it was great to catch up, really great to catch up. So you just have these connections and I can't remember who it was. It was the, it was the guy from, uh, um, one of your previous podcasts said your network is your network. Yeah. And that's, that is absolutely true. Ever since he told me that is absolutely true. So you cannot stop networking. You cannot stop, whether it's in the social, social aspect or a, or, or a business and professional career aspect, you, you can't, and that's the bit that I really, really love. You, you love cycling, right? And you were talking about, so even networking and cycling, you mentioned the story once, I think you know, Michael Pavlovsky from cycling tours around the world that you go on as well. Correct. Yeah, that's one of my, yeah, it's my, it's my, it's my passion. It's my go to. I mean, my, my daily routine is, um, get up, I get up at five 30 in the morning, go for a quick run, cycle to work and I do that five days a week and done it for, I'll give you the story a bit why I do it in a, in a minute. But, uh, the story you mentioned about, um, yeah, Michael started to get down to South Africa for a tour that I do with a bunch of other, it's a, it's an international cycling club. Uh, met some really good friends on there, and the very first time I was there, I saw a load of Oryx Stainless. Ah, okay. Yeah, I know RX and, uh, we do some business with him in Europe, so I went up and introduced myself. I dunno if anybody's here from the scrap. So Michael was the person I spoke to. Yeah. Yeah. I, I own, I own the business Oh, okay. You, you must know. You must know Sers. You won't know me, but we do lots of business. Yeah, I know. I know. Sackers, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, we got chatting. We had a really great time. And, um, his, well, I'm particularly that, I mean, it was like 40, 40 odd degrees in there and we were doing 120 k's a day through some hills. He flew over, he, he had been injured that, that, that week, so he did very little, very little cycling. So, he said to the Hot Chili guys, who are the organisers, I'll do some filming for you. So he flew over in his helicopter, and the particular place we were going, and I remember vividly, it was brown, barren, and only dust. So we just had 40 degrees. We were literally dripping in sweat and he flew over, circled around us, blew the bloody dust over everybody and we were red. We were covered in red dust from head to toe. Cheers Michael. Thank you mate. Never forgotten it. I hope you got an extra special price on your 304 something. Ah, I doubt it. No, nothing, nothing, nothing asked and nothing gained. Yeah, yeah, no, I hear you so let's talk Dave. You've been doing this for 45 years. I think you said right? You've been actually in the industry. I know you still manage the trading for Sackers as well Can you think of a time that you've done a trade? Where either it went well or it went badly or something that happened? That kind of left you with an important bit of learning that you won't forget and you'll pass on in the future um Great question. I think it has to be one of my very, very early, and it's not necessarily about trading, but it's about the, it's about doing business around scrap and, and processing and trading. My very, very first international, international trip to a subcontinent. So we started to do a lot of business with India. This is actually even before our shredder, we were just doing some other bits and pieces. So it was about 20 years ago. And I, I said, okay, I'm. India seems to be the place. I've got to go, I've got to go to India. I've got to, I've got to know what it's like. So, jumped on a red eye, flew into Mumbai. Actually, you know, before that, I, uh, I said to my dad, and my dad had been retired for quite a few years before that, and I said, I'm just going to go and have a look at India, because I think that's a, that's a, up and coming, up and coming, um, place. And he said, yeah, a really good idea actually, but fly business, fly business boy. And I said, well, I'm okay. Economy. It doesn't matter. No fly business. You're going on a, you're going on a business trip. This, this is, this is gospel trip. Um, so booked a BA, flew into Mumbai. It was a red eye, flew at about nine o'clock in the morning, something, something like that. And got to Mumbai, got to Mumbai and, um, As you fly over, you see the, the slum area on the, on the, actually you go over and it's bloody huge. It's really, really huge. Didn't really think anything about it. Touchdown. Taxi took me to the hotel. Refreshened up and what have you. The following morning. I remember I had my very first meeting thinking the hotel taxi, big Mercedes took me down to ready for my first meeting. It was about nine o'clock in the morning. And there I thought, bloody hell, business class, big five star hotel in Mumbai, this is 20 years ago, and I thought, Mercedes. Uh, come to pick me up. I thought, man, you've, you've made it. You've made it welcome to the big time. I got to the end of the road. I've done no more than 100 meters to this is honest, no more than 100 meters. There was a T junction at the end of the road, right in front of me. There was an old guy, no legs. no legs, on a skateboard, skating himself along, getting to a, getting to a, um, a pool of water, you know, puddle, and washing himself down from the pool, uh, you know, from the puddle. Then at the same time, out of the, out of the slum area, came about 30, 40 kids. 2x2x2x2x2 I remember it vividly, all in there blue and white, there were boys and girls blue and white, um, outfits all with satchels on, smallest to the biggest right at the back, smiling laughing, skipping, and I thought to myself, Dodgy, you know fuck all mate, you know absolutely zero about life. These guys, there's There's him trying to find a living, trying to, trying to eat and he's got no legs and he's washing in a puddle. Um, and here I was thinking that, you know, on the dog spot sits. Um, and that was a real humbling, humbling experience. And I've taken that ever since because you take nothing for granted, especially in business. You can do the best you possibly can, but you take nothing for granted. You have to work on every single supply, every single sales channel. Um, because the minute that you, that you take your eye off the ball, someone will step in and take that job. So that's what I passed down to the commercial team and most people who want to listen to me. Uh, India will do that to you, right? It's, it's extremely humbling. I mean, I come from South Africa, so it had less of an effect on me than it would others, um, probably because I've experienced quite a lot of that, but. Every time I go into India, I have a very, very similar humbling experience, but you know, what's quite interesting, what you said made me think of there's a, there's this fine line of success and failure. And often we, we put the successful people on a pedestal, but this luck has played a huge, huge part. They aren't necessarily that much better than the person next door that failed, who's now struggling to put food on the table. Might've just had one or two things that went their way. So when you start assessing somebody purely on their, um, on their success, you're doing it an injustice. You're doing an injustice on both parties, really. And as soon as you can, people, how people treat other people, that for me is like one of the most. Important things absolutely. Absolutely. My son, especially in the, in the commercial team who deal, who deal with, uh, India passing some, passing some stuff over because it's, you need to be, you need to be, um, have a good succession plan. So I'm passing some of that and it takes actually several, several visits to, actually see the real India. I still love visiting the place. The colors, the smells, yes, good and bad, the fragrances, the variety of, the variety of people. Yeah, I just, just love visiting that place for that very reason, because it just has a habit. Of bringing you down to earth. Um, but it's real life. Yeah, it's real life. And you know, What brings you down to earth the most when you start thinking about your problems and you speak about those kids and they were all smiling and happy, but they come walking out of the slums, right? And then you think about your problems and it puts them into context, right? It's all relevant. Totally. Absolutely into context. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so let's understand you've done a lot of sales into India. You do a lot of trading when you're selling your material. What are the factors that influences which markets you sell to? Is it purely based on price payment terms relationships? You know, what are you looking at? It's funny how things change and how your own perception changes as well. So in the early days, I was as aggressive as anything I would chase. The last 50 cents. I would chase the last dollar. I would be on the phone and be haggling for the last dollar But I think most traders now who have had some experience Will say do you know what if if the business is only worth that last dollar then it's not really a business So I now more stick to the trusted, uh, sales channels that we have been doing regular business. I will never undersell, but I, I recognize much more now that everybody has to eat. Everybody needs a piece of cake. And, uh, I'm much more forgiving now. I feel and maybe some of the agents and people I sell to will be looking at this podcast and say, do you? But I, but I hope, I hope I do. I'm much more, much more relaxed now because I'm less focused on the last dollar and I'm more focused on Okay, let's just make sure the quality's right make sure that you Also earn money because I need you there next month and the month after and the month after that's the um, That's that's my my ethos now It's a win. You're looking for a win win both parties need to leave a trade feeling happy with the deal that was done It then can lead to many many more Instead of trying to bully the other party. I was the exact same. I remember my mid twenties getting taught about trading and having to get every single dollar out of it and just squeeze, squeeze, squeeze. And then you just get yourself into a tricky situation because you push somebody so hard that if that material arrives and it's slightly off spec, well, there's one piece of dirt in it, you know, they're looking for everyone to come back. You don't really want that headache. You want to just be able to move on to the next trade and just keep going Absolutely. Yeah, and and that takes time and also, um experience to say The last dollar is not the most important but the most important dollar It's the first it's the first two or three you make a deal not the last dollar um, because everybody everybody needs, uh, needs a piece of cake and and it's funny because what happens is You You can push all you want as hard as you want, but as higher price you get, it doesn't matter if you don't get paid. So my old boss used to say, well, that's great. You've got the extra dollar. How sure are you? This new customer is going to buy from you. So, well, I mean, I'm trying, he's great. He's, uh, he's comes with a reputation. It's like, I'd rather maybe take the 2 less from somebody that I know will absolutely pay. You know, that highest price is nothing when you don't get paid. No, absolutely. You're only as good as the deal when the money's in the bank. Yeah. No, very much so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And plus also there's some very, very many famous sayings around business, but a contract is only a contract if both of you earn money. Um, you know, if you carry on squeezing, then someone will eventually say, well, it's not, David, it's not worth the business because I'm not earning money at all. Or it happens the other way. And we've all experienced that. Famous Mary Antoinette saying, isn't there? Let them eat cake from everybody. Everybody does have to eat. Yeah, for sure. I mean if you've got no buyers at the end of the day, because they don't make any money, what are we going to do with our material, right? Absolutely. We need them to be profitable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. In order to sell this material, you guys do some decent volumes. How do you get it in the door? Like what is your strategy when it comes to buying? I'm sure you've got a decent location. Have you got reps out on the road? Is the marketing, what do you do? So, um, I mean, in terms of our volume, our main production is, uh, through our shredder. And also our cable granulation plant as we're based in East Anglia. And I don't know if you know the geography of East Anglia. We're 12 miles from Felixstowe. So our, what's our location for exporting is absolutely perfect. We, we effectively only have 180 degrees of our catchment area to work from because On our right hand side is the North Sea, so our catchment area is, is mainly East Anglia for our supply chain, and we rarely will go outside, outside of that, because then the old adage is you're going into someone else's backyard buy feedstock, and before you know where you are, all you're doing is battling for battling for feedstock. We're very, very keen on maintaining our margin at all costs. We will rarely, rarely go below our, uh, our cost base just to, just to get material in, just to keep the shredder fed, just to get the granulator going, just to keep the HRP baler going. So, I see your LinkedIn posts, are you guys focused on marketing? Is that something you guys focus on? Or do you have people that go out to buy for you? Or do you just rely on pricing? No, well, we're actually a bit of both. Um, not so much the marketing too much because our supply chain for the Shredder actually is only 20 25 people, but they are a volume based business. And it's that relationship between our commercial team, our buyers and the commercial team and our supply chain is really important. That's the bit, that's the, that's the most important connection you can, you can make. They have got to want to sell you and they've also got to trust you to sell us their scrap to put through our shredder. If there's a lack of trust, then your business is finished. I can only guess that you're playing a part there as well and keeping those relationships going. Yeah. I mean, certainly a lot of them have been matured in my time, but I play no part in the purchasing anymore. Uh, the commercial team are doing a great job in looking after all that. They have taken on every single part of our supply chain, almost exclusively. And that was the, that was the handover. That was the succession. Part of the business because we have to hand it over to to the next generation at some point Yeah, well chatting to you in kolkata. I wasn't sure if you were going to hand over the sales ever But you mentioned earlier that you have started doing that too Actually, the success of the business is maintained on being the best buyers Because selling is, it's not the easy bit. Um, but because the, the worldwide prices are so open nowadays, there isn't any surprises when it comes to clove, when it comes to cocoa, when it comes to honey, when it comes to birchcliff. There's not many surprises around the world. Not many, that many niche businesses that actually pay a much bigger premium. So it's understanding where products go to for the best value and just maturing that sales channel. But the real key is being the best buyer you possibly can. And that's where we totally focus on being the best buyer. Make sure that when we buy something, we know it. We've done a lot of KYC and when it gets delivered, has it reached our expectations? And if that's, then great onto the next deal. Great. Onto the next deal. That's the key to success. Yeah. So many people in the show talk about making the money at the scale. It's when you buy it. It's not when you sell it. Of course, there's upgrading all of that needs to be taken into account, but it's how much you buy it for. You can only squeeze the sales market by one or two pennies. Correct. Absolutely correct, Stu. Yeah, you can, that's, there's very little movement in the sales. The big movement is in the purchasing, 100%. And also making sure that you know what you buy. You've done good KYC on all your supply chain and you know instinctively what's going to be on that lorry when it comes in. Yeah, that's getting out there. That's being in front of customers. Absolutely. Getting out there, kicking the tires in the yard. Uh, I remember someone saying the best fertilizer is the shit on, is the shit on a farmer's boots, which means your business will grow. If you're out in the, if you're out in the yard, seeing what comes in and making sure that you don't lose any trade advantage by buying inferior material. Yeah, 100 percent So easy to make that mistake though over the phone. Somebody offers you some material You might not know them So well, you say yeah, no problem i'll pay you whatever special price and it arrives and it's absolutely full of crap The guys in the yard tell you and then the commercial guys of i've had the experience the commercial guys try hide it You know Because they've made the mistake and then you all of a sudden you have higher impurities through your shred and it's just, yeah, it's just a big issue. Yeah, you got it. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So making sure you know, all the processes Every single part of the process has to be accountable. Well, this is what I wanted to ask you, right? So let's talk about data like you you're talking about succession You're talking about relying on Your, your customer service guys, your commercial team to buy, there's got to be some sort of data. Do you just go with gut feel? Yeah, I know you've been doing it for 45 years. What do you rely on to assess the performance of the business at any time? Yeah, great question, actually. I mean, as a, as a SME. We don't have the pockets of the, uh, multinationals to actually invest in bespoke, uh, we just don't have that. So we have to rely on weigh scales on all our trucks, all our JCBs, all our, well, everything that takes material from somewhere to somewhere else, everything gets weighed. And everything gets downloaded every night and every morning at nine 30 on the next morning, every single person and our management team then delivers the numbers for the day before. So the whole team, so the shipping team. Uh, the finance team, the operations team, and the maintenance team, they all for 20, 30 minutes every morning just talk about the previous day's numbers, what went well, what didn't go well, how we're going to change it, if we need to change it, how we're going to improve, and If it did go wrong, what was the root cause? So we are delivering this, uh, the five whys into the, into the business because all we want is continuous improvement. Every single person in this business, when they come home at nighttime and turn up the next morning is we want them to be better than they were the day before. And if everybody in our organization has the attitude, then the business has to be successful. Yeah, everybody in it. Everybody has the opportunity to to to move up. I love that you spoke about not having the Funds or having the size company to have the BI tools. I think it's super powerful to get your guys in a room every single morning and talk about the previous day and what the blockers are for today or tomorrow. Right. So, so how can we make sure we move forward every single day? Because otherwise some people do it weekly, some people do it monthly. I love a standup, which is just every day. It doesn't have to be a long sit down meeting. It's everybody can stand around the table, whatever it is for 15 minutes. And just, this is how my division did. This is where I need help because today I'm going to struggle with such and such. Everybody in the room can straight away know what they've got, what they need to do to help. That's hugely about, and I think people don't do that. I think. People rely on, let's say, for example, the data, you know, some people just take the ERP system straight from their way scales and they go, this is how much I bought yesterday. Hmm. What should I do today? Maybe I should get ahold of my commercial team. I'm talking about owner operators.

31:09

They take it all upon themselves, but to actually put the managers of all the different departments in a room every single day, I think that is really powerful.

BORN SCRAPPY S2E20 --- DAVID DODDS 01: 31:17

Yeah. Yeah. And it does work well. What we're trying to avoid is, uh, and what we know doesn't work is, um, pointy reality. Pointy shouty doesn't work in, in, in today's modern management world. Laying blame. No need to lay blame. Yeah. A hundred percent. Doesn't work. Doesn't, doesn't work. So we like collective responsibility and collective accountability. Yeah. If someone's responsible for their numbers, yeah. We don't want to hide and we don't want to fudge. We want to know exactly what happened because collectively we want to put it right. Um, because we are only here for the, only here for the business. As soon as you start blaming somebody, they start hiding. So if somebody comes into a meeting, I didn't perform, but I don't want to say something because I'm going to get shouted at. And like you say, finger pointing. But if I know that I can come and say, yesterday, the team didn't, my team didn't perform. I know that you're all going to help me. Then it creates a very, very different situation in your management team. Totally. Yeah. Totally. Um, because we don't want to blame culture. Absolutely. You want a team that just moves forward together. But now you've obviously got a team, right? So now we talk about a management team. You got people sitting. What happens for you? And what have your experiences been when somebody leaves? How are you keeping your people? Like I always like to ask different owner operators. What. It's not easy to find people in this industry in general. They're not coming out of university. Well, not yet. Hopefully in the next few years, you know, we change the industry a little bit. But they're not at the moment. So how are you keeping your people? Uh, I think there's two parts to this one, Stu. Pre COVID and post COVID. So pre COVID, we, our churn was one percent, something like that. It was really low. We rarely had people, people leave. Um, COVID hit, And then all of a sudden, you've probably heard this, every lorry driver in the, in the world suddenly could get better jobs, well paid jobs, um, by doing something else. So every day our transport manager would have a Knock on the door. So, uh, I need something. I've, I've been offered this. Yeah. So as a business, we just got together and said, look, this is going to be, this is going to be painful. We do know that we've got to do something about it. So we basically just read a check and said, look, okay, this is the new rates. And we managed to retain majority of them, but I would imagine. Honestly, maybe 30%, 30 percent found in that period when the labor rates just went skyrocketing. We couldn't afford to follow that. So like, I'm sorry, I can't match. You'll have to go. A few of them actually even come back since. Realizing there was just a short window of opportunity, and we don't blame anybody. Everyone's got to, everyone's got to feed their kids, right? And pay their mortgages. So I don't blame anybody at all. But, uh, that period there was, there was not a great deal of loyalty, um, to, to a business. that had bent over backwards, uh, for every single member in our family. Post COVID, uh, yes, that has been a challenge, not necessarily senior staff, but supervisory and below. We've, we've seen a fair regular churn. Of good quality crane drivers, good quality forklift drivers, um, leaving the industry because there's better opportunities and opportunities that we just simply couldn't match. So, yeah, what we, what we do now is what we will pay. We'll pay the best price for the best people. Um, but we won't put up with poor performance. It doesn't matter whether it costs us an extra XXX per hour. Just don't want to put up with poor performance and we'll pay whatever price we need to for the right person. And we're small enough to be able to control, control that. We're still a small family business. Um, so we can control that quite well. What are you on, are you on overhand control on the right? Uh, marginally under now, marginally under. Um, but yeah, we're still, we're still very close, still very close to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got you. I saw lately you bought a new sorting machine, some, one of the Tomras. Right. Correct. Metal finder. What are you? Yeah. Um, I didn't see exactly what the detail was, but how do you see technology playing a part in the future as a whole in our industry? You know, you've got that sort of equipment. You've obviously got a whole lot of other things. How do you see it changing our game? Uh, honestly, I'm really, really excited about it. I think AI is going to, is going to play, uh, it's still very early in our industry. Um, but I think it's going to play a massive, massive role. Uh, you know, we're talking about the, uh, the mine underground for the scrap industry and being able to separate. Effectively, cost efficiently, every single alloy that comes through, and we're doing 150, 000 tonnes, um, every single alloy that comes through this, comes through our gates, to be able to effectively, to sort it into individual alloys, that's a game changer. I think that we're a few years away from it. But when it does happen, I read a great report, Stu, during the week on FastMarkets about um, some blast furnaces now in Europe are now consuming low copper, low copper, uh, so low res, uh, steel frag in replacement of DRI because they think it's the better feed. But the alloy has to be really specific. So we start getting into things like that, then all of a sudden the mining of the ore to make the DRI is becoming, you know, a real old thing and why would you have to do it when we, as an industry, can make our product just that little bit better to cut a chain out to go directly to the primary source. To make the best possible product because it's all added value to us. And that, I think the AI part of that industry. It's going to be, it's going to be, um, super exciting. Yeah. AI has got so many opportunities, you know, I don't even want to go into some of the things that have been spoken about on this podcast and whenever I'm chatting to other people, you know, Attila Widnall likes to talk about from navigate commodities, you know, satellite tracking and things like that. It's just, you know, and then you bring AI into it. It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's going to be wild. It's very exciting, but it's really important to stay. On top of it and not just let it happen to you. Yeah, that's exactly, that's exactly right. So, um, did you go to the CMRA last year? No, I missed it. There was the first, it was the first one in four or five years, I think. So, uh, one of the exhibitors that brought the AI camera out for cable detection. I think you know who I'm talking about. I have to say that is pretty damn accurate. Yeah, it's only going to get better. It's only going to get better. Absolutely. And considering it's in its infancy now, there's very little investment going into it. So the right people doing the right stuff and investing the right amount of money, but it's, it's not going to be cheap. So there's going to be some haircuts taken for sure, but the person. And the industry that actually are the person in the company that makes the right investment and And continues to do so that is going to be a game changer I mean how hard is it for us to train people and to find new people on the front scale if we could have some way Whether it's you know via goggles, you know, and I being able to identify what the commodities are It'll change the game completely right? So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm excited for that I was, I was, uh, we, uh, we had a, uh, an old British BSMA golf association, um, golf day the other day. And one of the guys in my team, we were just talking about, he's my agent and he's sort of, uh, he runs a trading business, but he's done, he's done physical yard as well in his early days. And, uh, we were having a bit of a laugh at the 19th saying, can you remember when we first got into the business, the way that we used to sort browse. We used to sort brass with a file, every single piece was filed and you would tell by the color, was it a rod brass, was it a heavy brass, and we would sort it, every single piece was done manually. And you try and tell the kids, or try and tell my son now, and the guys in the mail said, this is, this is how we used to do it. you know, XXX years ago, just blow their mind. We get that technology. And, and, and, and, and your wife, the first place I ever worked in Nonferrous. I was 18 years old. It was an area called Isi Tebe on KwaZulu Natal, so the northern part of Durban in Zululand. And, um, started with the cutting torch and then I moved into the non ferrous yard and we were buying on the front scale and worked with a guy and I think his name was Moses. I'm trying to remember. Um, very elderly, half blind. I think he was probably 90 percent blind. And the way he could identify the metal was he would pick it up with his hand and he would hit it with a piece of metal and he would listen to it. And he knew the noise it made, he could identify what the grade was. Yeah. I mean, that's old school, you know, you're not going to find those people anymore. No, absolutely. No, absolutely. And I think that type of sorting does deserve to be X years ago, because that's not the new thing. That's not how we are going to get better. We are going to get better by using the technology. But I mean, agree that those, those skills are Those are long gone now. And you're not going to need them anymore. They're obsolete. And you're not Yeah, exactly. But it's going to make our lives easier because now how do you train those people? Now, all of a sudden is goggles is AI can identify commodities. It's going to be a lot easier. Um, I want to ask you something about capital because you've bought quite a lot of equipment. You keep talking about you're an SME, privately owned family business. When it comes to buying your equipment, you've got a shredder, you've got granulation plants, you've got all the sorting equipment, you must have heaps of trucks and bins, et cetera. what do you recommend is the best process for getting that capital? Um, If cashflow allows cashflow, uh, and, and of course it depends in the economic cycle where the, um, interest rates are for us is cash and debt, cash and debt only. You don't rely on selling any equity. You've kept it very much in your family. 100%. Um, correct. I meet lots of people that have sold 20%, 30 percent of their company. So it's always good to get other people's opinion. You very much. Utilize your own cash loan to value ratios. Make sure that you can get the rest of the debt from the bank. Make sure it's manageable. Make sure the interest rate is manageable plan for. A rainy day, right? We model and model again. Yeah when we're doing um a capex model it once Model it again. Okay. Does it still fit? Yeah. Okay, but once we've made the decision we go. Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome before we go I need to ask you who, who would you like to see on Born Scrappy next? My immediate reaction would be any, any of the old stalwarts in the business. Just to take, have their take on, on what it was. But then you got the up and coming guys as well. Don't be afraid to throw out some names. If you could make two or three of these people you're talking about. I think some very interesting people like, uh, Jason Ripley is a good example. Uh, family business, very much like us. Richard Ripley down in the UK. He was one of the first people in the UK to, um, uh, put in, um, loops technology for his aluminum sorting. Very good friend of mine. Uh, great business. He would be a very interesting person to, uh, to, to get on. And then you've got the, the, the other young guys such as Leo Lehman, good example, know his father really well, Lehman Brothers, uh, in London, Essex. Uh, they've just put in a, in libs to do some aluminium sorting. Super, super intelligent, lovely guy. I would, uh, they're two guys that I would, I would consider. They would be able to tell a story. Yeah, fantastic. That's awesome. Um, last thing, quick fire, last few questions. Favourite TV series or movie? Oh, that's really easy. Uh, Yellowstone. Oh, wow. Okay. Oh, now I'm speaking to somebody in the UK and you're talking Yellowstone. I normally expect it from the people in the US. Oh, no, no, no. I mean, I came to Yellowstone really late. Meanwhile, I came to Yellowstone really late. We probably only finished it End of last year and it's been going for a good few years like eight seasons. I think isn't it? I actually haven't watched it. I'm moving the family to texas next month. I probably should catch up on my yellowstone Yeah Absolutely. It is. It's phenomenal. It's a it's a great it's it's a in terms of a book It's a page turner. You you won't be able to put it down Favorite place favorite place you and your family or you like to visit You Ah, crikeys. I think there's two for me. As you know, cycling is my passion. There's a, well, in Cape Town, there's a beautiful little village in the, up in the wine regions called Franschhoek. That's where Michael's got his place. I know it very well. That's exactly where, exactly where Michael's got his place. A lot of my friends got married in Franschhoek. I'm from Cape Town originally, so I know it very well. I used to play rugby in Stellenbosch, which is next door. Ah, perfect. So, so that's, that's almost what I went there for several years. Uh, so we always based in, in Franschhoek as to some beautiful restaurants. The cycling is stunning around there. The roads are great, virtually no traffic and XX rands to the pound. You could eat like a, eat like a king for a few quid. You really do eat like a king, right? Franschhoek, the restaurants are incredible. Some of the best in the world. The wine is incredible. Oh, the wine's incredible. But the only thing that I can't get quite used to is you South Africans just don't like vegetables. We do. We eat chicken. It's just, you know, the meat's that thick. It's beautiful meat. Ha But it's like a, it's like a kilo of steak comes out and there's like a, uh, uh, uh, a head of broccoli and one carrot. That's garnish. That's garnish, man. That's not to eat. They move it from plate to plate. No one actually eats that. Yeah. So that's my, that's my go to. Oh, you said two. You said two, right? Yeah, number two with my wife is the relaxation place is Lindos. Lindos in Greece, in Rhodes, Island of Rhodes, it's just the most stunning, very tiny little village. Not many people know about it, but it's beautiful, great restaurants, lovely quiet beach. Food must be great, yeah, food must be great. Yeah, Mediterranean food is perfect, yeah. So they're my two, they're my two go tos. Got you. Um, favourite book? Favourite book, um, I probably won't be able to pin it down to the favourite book, but I like a, a particular author, Jean Lecar. Yeah. He's a classic 1960s, 1970s spy, spy master back in the cold war. It does great writing. Love his books. And last thing people love in our industry quotes. Have you got a favorite quote that you use? Yeah, pretty, pretty much so. Up and down our stairs in both offices, we have lots of little quotes that everybody can see on an every day. So at some point it will drop in. But my most favorite one is, uh, success isn't final. Um, failure isn't fatal. It's the courage to carry on that's successful. That's amazing. That's fantastic. That's the quote that I think about. Amazing way to end this. Dodsy, that was fun. Really, really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for being up on Scrappy. No worries, dude. Thank you very much for the invite. Do appreciate it. Thank you, mate. Cheers