S2E19: Focusing on fundamentals with The Metals Agency's Aldo Jordan

Hi! I'm Stu Kagan, welcome to Born Scrappy.

My goal is to spark more industry collaboration through sharing the experiences and learnings of industry greats through my podcast.

So if you are a scrap metal exporter and you're ready to up your game by standing on the shoulders of giants - this one's for you!

SEASON 2 | EPISODE 19
FEATURING GUEST ALDO JORDAN

In today's episode, I’m joined by Aldo Jordan.

Aldo is President at The Metals Agency and has spent 20 years in the industry, from commercial purchasing and commercial sales to operations and international logistics.

For 12 years, he worked for metal recycling giant Schnitzer Steel in various executive management positions, most recently as Director of Non-Ferrous Sales.

Not only is Aldo highly experienced in global B2B metal recycling commodity trading, he also holds a bachelor’s degree in industrial engineering and an MBA from Loyola University in Chicago.

In today’s episode we talk about:

👉 Understanding your material quality
👉 Having a personal board of advisors
👉 Giving your buyer a heads up
👉 Making money on the buy
👉 Credit insurance
👉 And much more

Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.
The only marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies.

https://www.tradebuddy.io/
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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Sue Kagan, and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped build this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by Aldo Jordan. Aldo is the president of the Metals Agency. Before going out on his own, Aldo had a long career at Schnitzer Steel, one of America's largest metal recyclers. For his last four years at Schnitzer, he held the director of non ferrous sales role. In today's episode, we talk about understanding your material quality, having a personal board of advisors, giving your buyer a heads up, making money on the buy side, credit insurance, and so much more. So let's get into it with Aldo. But first, intro. Hello, welcome to Bourne Scrappy, how are you? Thank you very much to really appreciate the invitation. Yeah, I'm excited. Always enjoy talking to you. So, uh, now we're recording it and, uh, this will be enjoyable. I know we'd last time. So each other was in Las Vegas, not, not too long ago. Absolutely. And here we are again, just shooting the shit, having a chat to friends. This will be fun. Exactly. Let's do it. So Aldo, for those of those out there globally that don't necessarily know you, um, tell us a little bit about your background, um, how you got into metal recycling and obviously I know, but the new venture that you've now started. Thank you, Stu. Appreciate it. So I'm now rounding up my 20 years in the industry. I have had the opportunity to work for large and small companies. So But my very first introduction to scrap was on a small metal shop in Guatemala, where I grew up, and my grandfather was all sorts of industrial services. I got hooked up in scrap and torching and welding from a very young age, so I got it back very early on my, on my years. And professionally speaking, my very first formal job was with a company in Chicago almost 20 years ago on the operations side. And I've had a great opportunity to work both commercial, buying, selling, operations, fares, non fares, shredders, deep water port facilities, logistics. I love the industry and every day I feel like I discover something new and a new friendship. And that really keeps me going every day. Love it. And um, Just touch on one or two of the large companies that you work for, who they were. So we get a little bit of context of where you've been and then what you're currently doing now in your new venture. Absolutely. For 12 years, I worked for one of the largest companies in the country, the US based, uh, Snitcher Steel Industries, which now is known as Radius. I came to work for them in the West coast region, California, Hawaii, Nevada. in 2011 and got the great opportunity to meet a lot of great people, was given lots of great opportunities, met some really awesome people. Kudos to this company. They're great people to work for. Uh, was promoted four different times, learned a lot. And at the end of 2022, it was my last year with them. I mean, 2023, I started my own company. So it's something that I've been thinking about for a very long time. And I felt like the time was, uh, was correct for me from a professional standpoint, from a family standpoint. And there came a decision, like, uh, if he's not now, So here we are. And, and what does your new venture do specifically? So we provide a very niche service within a niche industry. We, the metals agency was funded essentially to do services that are usually only available for global large companies and be able to keep that access to all sorts of companies. So we are a trading company, but the difference between us and the brokering companies that we work exclusively for the companies that hire us. There is a big difference on that from that transparency and few this year responsibility and companies that hires as either scrap producers. So we market and sell their scrap exclusively on their behalf or in consumers, global companies from overseas. The higher as to buy in Canada, the U S and Latin America on their behalf. And to compliment that service on the commercial side, we also offer other services that companies can use a la carte, paging, logistics, credit insurance, banking payments. Uh, so we are able to support a transaction from beginning to end. And it gives the availability of these smaller companies to have access to these tools that are, like I say, are usually only available for larger companies. Yeah, and that's a, I guess that's the really tough part of being a small to medium business is, is having the ability to hedge, having the ability to take advantage of a sales price, which is to the best market, but it's CFR and payment is on arrival on the other side. I mean, I've traveled a lot around the U. S. lately, and it's. It's a lot of people sell FAS with early payment just because that helps with cash flow. They don't have to have a shipping team, et cetera, et cetera. So any help you're adding there is I can see huge value in that because to get or to take advantage of or to maximize your sales price. You really need to be getting into those in markets wherever you can and selling CFR and being willing to accept later payment or getting trade finance or however you do it, but that ability to get into those markets will get you that edge in your local market. I believe that that's exactly right. And that's where we saw the need for the market. And that's why we created such a different company, uh, because we wanted to offer that opportunity to your point, a lot of companies that produce the quality of this crap, that they could go to the end consumer. They don't go to the end consumer because they might know who the end consumer is, or they need credit with a Reddit Lash Asian company, or they don't have a logistics team. We have our own logistics team. Uh, we have a document, uh, teams as well for the export market, and we can process, uh, containers. So currently we process container shipments to about 19 different countries, and we can offer all of that for a company that has, uh, Two containers, 20 containers, 200 containers, we can scale that up pretty easily for them. Yeah, it's excellent. I see the opportunity there. Um, Aldo, talk me through, you've been doing this for a while now, you've probably done some really big trades in your time. Talk me through a tough trade, a trade that either went wrong or was just really tough to execute, um, and what you learned from going through that and maybe it's something you'll never forget in your trading in the future. Well, that's a great question because a lot of us, sometimes we like to talk about those, those homegrown wins that went perfect. But I, I, I think that you learn a lot of those ones. We don't, we don't learn from successes, right? No. So we want to learn from your failures. Yeah. And believe me, I have plenty of it. I can tell you my very first, like, like, uh, absolutely you, you did not do executed this right was with a copper letter cable in Chicago where I did not do my due diligence. And there was a layer of a steel in there. So I just assume that everything was the same. And, you know, that, that teaches you a lot of lessons with that. Um, but a particular challenging one, I think is, uh, you know, we in Oakland, California were provided a services back on the essential steel days to the Oakland bridge project, which were some, uh, pieces that were 60, 80 feet long, uh, very challenging to move logistically that's crap. So it required a lot of coordination among different players. Uh, it took several months, but we learned a lot of lessons about being supported by good trade people on the logistics side, on the environmental side. Uh, there is a lot of opportunity for things to go wrong. And when they go wrong, I like to get in front of things right away and be honest with my trading partner about what went wrong and how I'm trying to fix it. Uh, I learned very early on my career that when you're going to deliver bad news, get it, get in front of it right away and be very clear about what you're trying to do to be able to make it to make it better. It's funny. Um, so we obviously have built a, um, tech platform called buddy and my wife's. Favorite part of it, which hasn't been released yet is, and this came from 150 different interviews she did before we started building is what she calls the heads up feature. And what the heads up feature does is if you are a scrap supplier or you're, you're the supplier, you're packing the material in the containers and you know, that there's an issue, it gives you the ability to go onto the platform and click a button. And that's just a heads up. It says, Hey, just so you're aware, I'm getting in front of this, my guy loaded. X material that he shouldn't have. So when it's going to arrive in your yard or at your facilities, expect there to be this in the, in the content, it goes a really long way. Um, and the reason why she loves it is because it's something that nobody else would necessarily pick up the idea of having a function where you can just go, there's a problem here and. It, it comes through in the podcast that I do. So many people speak about it. If you front foot a problem, that problem becomes much smaller. If you leave it, it festers, it grows, um, it becomes a gigantic problem. So I absolutely love that. I think that's a great point to make, get in front of problems early. Not only that, I think that people would respect that you are being upfront about it because mistakes happens. Things happen. You and I have been on a trading business, operation business, work for large or small companies, and you know that mistakes happen. Um, literally just before I, you know, came to talk to you, I made a mistake of a couple pennies on appeal and I called the supplier and I said, Hey, this is a mistake. I'm holding the price on this, but I just wanted to let you know that it's a mistake. So don't go and buy more based on thinking that you can, you know, have a sale with me after this, because I made a mistake. This is the price, right? Yeah. But people certainly respect that. And, uh, you and I know that a lot of times the first problem is easy, easily resolvable is the sequential hiding of the problem and not being in front about it. That really comes from the probably even bigger. We're I think I've said this before. So say for example, you're in the yard, I'm talking out to the middle cyclist. You're in a yard and you notice that some oversized material, I'm making this up, was loaded in a container. It shouldn't have been loaded. It was put on a side and the guy loaded, it's not necessarily your fault. You haven't done it on purpose. Your loader has incorrectly put that in the containers or on a truck to get rid of it. If you don't contact the buyer, when the buyer gets it. He will obviously claim on it, but he will be angry immediately. He's angry because it looks like you try to take advantage. And I can tell everybody this when he sees 5%, the issue is say 5%. I'm making up a number. He'll claim 10 or 12 percent because he's wondering what did he miss? Because you took advantage. You try to take a chance. He'll He's only picked up this one piece or this one issue, but you're somebody who tries to take a chance there for. I've probably missed a whole lot of other stuff. I'm going to claim more than what I see here right now. If you have contacted them and said, Hey mate, there's an issue. My guy loaded this. It's about 300 kgs or half a ton or whatever, many pounds. Like I know that it's there. I expect a claim for this. Just know that we didn't mean to pack it. And it was an ink, you know, a mistake. Okay. It arrives and the buyer sees it and he goes, Oh, I knew about this material. Not an issue. It weighs that amount guys quickly stick it on the scale. Yeah, confirm. No problem. The supplier was honest enough to tell me that it was coming. It's it's chalk and cheese, right? Yes. Yes And it gives the people a time to not just like you said prepare and know about it, but actually prepare right? Sometimes, you know That the end consumer need has tools that they need or different pieces of equipment. It makes a huge difference when you know that ahead of time instead of receiving the phone call in the office that you now have a large home costillo that you were not expecting and you're now trying to scramble and figure out what to do. It actually works both sides. It works both sides. If you think about it, if you were receiving in your recycling yard. And you were meant to be collecting, you know, in size, perfectly processed material from a demolition company and some six meter beams arrived. You want them to notify you because you have to know that you're going to have to do something else. You need an area to lay it down. I know some yards are huge in America. Other yards are smaller. And it's like, Oh, you just sent me these beams are oversized. Why didn't you tell me? It, you should try and relate it in the same way when you're packing material for export or for local sale, whatever it is, because that I'd say this all the time, what you pack in the container, the other party is offloading. Don't think that they're not going to see if you pack some oversized or some material that shouldn't be there. Like they took the container, it comes there, they see exactly what you packed. Absolutely. I mean, when, when, when you think about the amount of trust that we have to put on each others, because we're a sequence of chains of events. To your point, what we do reflects on the next person and the next person and so on. So it's, it makes a great difference to have somebody that you can be in the phone and say, Hey, we made a mistake. Here he goes. Be prepared. Heads up. Huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about, um, having somebody that you can call, right? Do you, do you have anybody that you in particular think that you, um, collaborate really well with? Um, or have in the past relied on relationships in particular to help you through tricky times or to help you make a decision or something like that? Oh, absolutely. Even to this day. I think that is, uh, I would like to think that it is one of the things that have, Really allow me to grow in the industry is my willingness to pick up the phone. And, you know, reach out to people with experience, different backgrounds as well, and be able to ask questions and ask for guidance. Everybody brings a different take to it, a different kind of perspective to it, but I have such a. Large network of people that I feel that I can come in and consult that it's, uh, it's pretty awesome to be, to be in that situation and, and be able to grab that experience and apply to whatever is in front of you. And by the way, I wanna make a clarification there. That is, that goes for professional and also I feel for my personal. Level as well. Let's double click into that a little bit. When you say personal, you're talking about surrounding yourself with friends that you can rely on or business people personally. How do you do that in a personal way? In a personal way, I have what I call my personal board of advisors. And it's a group of six people that I really rely on. Uh, my wife is one of those, of course. Uh, but I also have a, an executive coach that actually has been with me for the last 12 years and she has been greatly, uh, helpful on helping me navigate those, those personal challenges or those situations where you feel like you need use some help in a different perspective. Um, there's some people in there that I have known me. For a very long time, and I know that they would tell me the true, uh, the way they see it, and sometimes it can feel pretty, pretty harsh, or maybe you're not hearing what you thought that it was such an exciting news for you, uh, but these group of six people really rely on, and some of them are within the industry, some of them are not, but I always feel like I can really come, come back to this, to this group of people, and they have my back in a way that I feel very, very much. supported and unafraid to really ask questions, feedback, advice. Yeah, I, I wanted to delve into that a little bit more because, um, I think it's, um, we don't talk about it enough in our industry. Um, it's mainly a, um, there's a lot of men in our industry. Um, old school. We don't speak about our emotions. We don't need other people to help us. We can solve this all by ourselves. Um, I think that is absolute bullshit. Like I have a personal board of directors as well, seven people, um, that I see, I sit with every single month together as a group. Um, and it is absolutely vital that I speak to them every month. It doesn't matter what it is that I'm going through. Um, I need to be able to speak to people and get other people's experiences to realize that what I'm going through. Isn't, um, I guess it's normal, right? Um, everybody has the hard times. They have the good times and it's good to go through both. But what's really important here is if we talk about a personal board of directors is just like you do for a business, you should have like a matrix. You should say, what am I looking for? To achieve from this. What do I, where do I have a gap? So it's great that, you know, you have your wife involved. That's brilliant. She's going to be honest with you, but only to a certain extent, whereas you have lifelong friends that you can speak to, they're going to probably be honest with you no matter what it is. Um, and then you go, but then I also need some people on the business side that kind of maybe understand the industry. And if you take a serious look, like you would a corporate or a decent sized business, and you're building up a board of directors, the amount of value you will get from that. You can't, you can't buy that. Like that is gigantic and I can't tell people enough find yourself a coach Find yourself your own board of directors and that board of directors is not just for business It's for absolutely anything to help you get through it So i'm so happy to hear you talk about doing it. Um, I don't hear anybody else really talk about doing it there are communities you can join like i'm a part of ypo young presence organization where um, We, we sit on a monthly basis with our forum and these people become your personal board of directors. You can look at that. There's entrepreneurs organization, um, which is EO, those sorts of things as well. And these are communities that get together and actually help each other. And they're all kind of on the business side, probably more than anything, but your forum, excuse me, your forum does help you on a personal family side as well, emotional side. So, yeah, it makes you a better person all round. Is that what you feel? Oh, absolutely. I mean, I can tell you that we need to stop, uh, we need to start demystifying these mental health component because it's such an important part of we as human bring all of our emotions or, or awesomeness comes through on no matter what we do, but, you know, I think that, uh, it's really important, especially for men, because we tend to not talk about it, especially on a very, uh, male dominated environment where everybody, has these, you know, pass out of being able to be strong and all of that, and that is fine. But mental health is such an important component, physical well being, you know, professional well being, all of it is together. It intersects and moves and flows constantly with us. And that's why I felt very strongly about being advised and supported by people who Are a mix of backgrounds and they have been with me and supporting me through the process when my high winds are carrying me very, very high. And in those challenging situations where you're like, man, I just kind of feel like I'm, you know. On this one alone and you're not, you know, entrepreneurship is not an easy gig. You and I know about it. Uh, being a professional is not, it can be very challenging being a father, being a husband can have these challenges. And these people give you a perspective of it's going to be all right. You are able to believe on that process and be able to find the support that you help. It makes you such a much better person, a better professional, better husband. It's nothing like being able to talk about it and be able to have the feedback come back to you and say, you know what, there's a couple of good points in here I can definitely utilize. And it's funny because, um, we talk about the hard times and of course they are, but it's a roller coaster, right? So it's up and down. So you can look at it's even success won't last. So it's even, like you say, it's like when you're flying absolutely high as ever, you know, these people are going to go, all right, just calm yourself down a little bit. Um, you still got a long way to go. You're, you're in your thirties, forties, and, um, you're halfway and you're celebrating, like you've just won the world cup. So, um, yeah, I think, I think it's, but, but before we go off completely on a tangent, which I feel we might have already, uh, hopefully we haven't lost too many people on that, but, um, Let's talk about the trading side again. So how do you recommend a metal recycler optimizes their strategy? And this can be all encompassing, right? And I don't want to direct you anywhere, but we're talking shipping, trade finance, whatever it could be. How do they really get the most out of their sales and trading process? Great question. I, and I can tell a lot of people will start by telling you, especially in the trading side about markets and this and that. I would tell you this fundamentally speaking, the best start that a small recycling company can have to be able to trade to the highest values to really understand the quality that they produce and who needs that quality. We are living on a global scale where the best that you can do on a very simplistic terms to market is to put the best package that you have in the best possible home that can use that quality. If a supplier is able to understand and execute on that, their odds of success are going to be very, very good. Because they have a really clear understanding where the package can and cannot go and what the value is supposed to be for that package. There's a few things in that one is make sure you're making a decent quality. I think that's the one thing. So they must make sure that they make it and also understand. If you're making that level of quality where it can go, right. I think, um, to unpack that a little bit, you know, it doesn't have to go into, um, the standard places. Not all copper granules are made equal. Not all HMS is made equal. Um, you can make premium grades and vice versa. You can make per level, right. Of quality. So know your quality. And find the market for your quality that it's suitable. Don't shoot for the moon. If you're not making that quality as well, be very careful because you might think you making a, you know, Even let's just call it a clove, but you're actually making a Cobra. I'm talking about copper granule grades. Um, so know what granule you're making, know what quality of whatever it is you're making and find the right market for that, as I said, don't try and sell your Cobra into the clove market because you're just going to have an issue. Right. I'm sure you've seen that sort of issue before. I can tell you that I see it constantly. Somebody. Calls us or interacts with us and they name a price and I'm like, what quality is that? Oh, because I heard that price out there. Well, yeah, that price is out there certainly but not for that package, right? So the problem with that is that you're mismarketing your product, right? You're you're trying to fit it in a home that is not available to you because of the quality and I think that it happens very frequently because The amount of information that people have these days is very passing, and I think that technology wise, you know, apps like you are trying to be a bit more transparent with the execution of the supply chain. That is very helpful to the supplier because now they have transparency components in there that are usually not available to them. A lot of times, I have a lot of good relationship with brokering homes and they have a space that is needed. But once you sell it to a brokering home, you don't know the end consumer, so you don't know why is that package valuable for somebody. I think that technology is going to bring a lot of transparency to that. Uh, certainly your application does that you get to know the person who you're transacting with and and that can be very helpful for the supplier to understand why is it that they need this package and why are they willing to pay a premium for it? Also, it can give you data as well, which is hugely vital. I guess that data that can show you and this person previously supplied me the same. Quality, they're saying clover gain, but last time I, I claimed 2 percent because it was Cobra or Cocoa. And it's like, now they're offering me the same from the same granulation plant. Like I can now I go and see that data, but don't create the headache for yourself is what I think. Like if you're a metal recycler, if you can't make a margin. Selling your quality at the grade that it actually is, you're buying incorrectly. Yes. And think, just think about that component that you just mentioned, data, right? Your, your, your platform has the ability to provide that, that feedback to the supplier. When, when you're transacting in a way where you don't have that data, how do you adjust your package or how do you adjust your marketing? You don't know. Because you're not getting that feedback back. That's another thing that differentiates us from what we do. That the people that we sell this crap for, we sell it on their behalf. They know exactly where to go. They know exactly what the challenges are. They know exactly how much they can pay. They know exactly why we're marketing it there. So that loopback of information is available to them. We can adjust as needed. Without it, you are kind of, you know, uh, trying to tinker with ideas about or hopes of how to better develop that package without information that is actually needed. Um, I spoke to David Dodds um, from Sackers in the UK. He's been doing this for over 40 years. And he made a really good point that, um, there's no secret markets anymore, right? If you get a price for a commodity. And you get three of the same prices and one is absolutely ridiculously higher. You need to question Why? Like a lot of people jump on it. They get really excited and often it's a new buyer and that new buyer Doesn't last very long. Um in your business because it doesn't matter what the price is if you don't get paid, right? So, um How do you bring on new buyers? So if you're looking at a new buyer You know, what are the kind of credit checks, reference checks? What are you doing to make sure that somebody is a valid new buyer to bring on? Well, that's a, that's a great question. We got happens constantly. You and I have seen these cycles that when the commodity market goes up, we get all sorts of new, uh, uh, entrance into the marketplace. And when you really think about it, sometimes all somebody has is a cell phone or a website or an email address and they're trading. Um, it is, it can be very risky. The things that we do as a company, first of all, is we have a process where we actually check references and we check credit. And we also check the trading history of our partners. We are trying our best not to put our suppliers or consumers in the hands of somebody where a deal. It is not going to be with reputable companies and a lot of times we start away from the high price that we know it's just not available there. There is a hole on the equation. You and I know, because he cannot possibly go for higher than this price because the incentive value has a limit to it, but it happens constantly and we have to be very disciplined. Marketing, uh, person to be able to say, no, I'm not going to sell here because I'm going to put my supplier or my consumer in a very tough position. And this deal is going to go sideways and you just know about it. I had, um, on, on the platform, I think last week or the week before there was some cables, some ICW, and I think it was like 45 to 50%, um, copper content. And somebody offered a price. I swear. I can't remember, but I think it was like 8, 000 us dollars. I was like. No, no, that's, that's not what the guy contacted me. The supplier was like, they're double the next best price. Um, how reputable are these guys? And I was like, these guys are a massive buyer. Like these guys are a great buyer. So I said, just message on the platform and just say like, Hey, how, you know, like you don't even have to ask anything more, like just how question Mark. Anyway, they asked the question and the guy had made a mistake. Okay. But if he had accepted that sale, I promise you it would have gone through until the company had to make payment or somebody in this large trading company picked up that, hold on, you forgot to take the percentage of copper return out of the cable. You forgot to times it by 45%, like, like you've made a massive error here, right? Um, so. As David Dodds, he says, you know, there aren't any secret markets. If you're getting crazy prices, find out why. Um, those days are long gone. Um, you know, Phillips brothers and those sort of guys in the, in the good days. And they could do, you know, if you read some of those books, like the world for sale, and there were opportunities to, to get into niche markets and, and. Make huge margins. We're all fighting for margin here. The focus for the metal recycler should be on the buy side. Buy it correctly. Sell it for a market related price. Make sure you get paid. I, I've been on both sides of the equation on the buy side, on the sales side, and I can tell you every single time I have heard about it. And it's true. You make your money on the buy. If you're a good buyer, you're a good processor, you understand what you're making and how to make a profit. To your point, there is no secret markets out there. Okay. I even have worked for a large company. I traded, uh, on behalf of Snitcher, just about all the commodities. Okay. We did it for all 55 locations around the country on a global scale. I can tell you that there is no secrets out there to your point. Everybody knows who the consumers are. Everybody knows who the traders are. We, we were in a very niche market. We all get together at the convention in Vegas and we, we get to, we get to introduce each other to whoever we don't know, but there's a few of those more and more. It requires a lot of discipline. Especially for the smaller yards to have the discipline in the patient to see it through. There is no gambits out there where somebody is going to offer you four dollars a copper today. That's a mistake. But I can tell you a lot of people fall for it and sometimes unfortunately they end up on bad deals on bad financial situations because they Don't have the discipline to see the deal through and they got very excited about a price that just doesn't exist. That is, that is a discount coming to them in some form or way for sure. And Dodsey said, um, literally you only learn this with experience. It's like early on, and I mean, I'm having the story again and it was on last week, but you know, in my late twenties, I was eager to get every dollar, like get every dollar, find, Oh, he's offering me a great price. Fantastic. I'm going to take it. Not even sometimes skip the credit check, maybe not phone the referrals, you know, do what I need just because it's such a good price. When you learn the hard way, you don't forget and it changes the way you trade. That's for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. And it happens, you know, and it happens. And even with the best systems and due diligence, there's always that risk of, of the person not coming through. Okay. Uh, just because you have a credit check, remember that, that's, that doesn't guarantee, uh, uh, success throughout. And you are not paying you the company isn't actually they're not guaranteeing your payment There you go, right? And uh credit insurance are good to to ensure credit lines They don't ensure even the entire amount, right? So here's a question for you. Although quickly credit insurance. Have you ever claimed on it? I claim on only once with a company in the U. S. And it took us about six years of going back and forth because they don't make many on on pain. Okay, they make many money on charging premiums, hoping that the guy's not going to default. Uh, and I'm not saying that he's not a useful tool. We use it all the time, but we also we use it with a measure of understanding that is not a is not a fail safe mechanism. And the mechanism for collecting, if somebody defaults, it can be very long and arduous and expensive on the legal side as well. So you said you use it all the time. I've had this conversation many times, probably not on the show, actually. Um, so that's a good one, um, to get into, but you say you use it every time, uh, often. What you mean is you pay the premiums a lot. There you go. Absolutely. Because, I, I have never claimed on it. I used it for 15 years, probably never once claimed on it. And when I did once, I never got a cent back because they had every reason why I wasn't eligible for that payment back from insurance. So. I just kind of still feel that this industry, I'm not telling people not to do it. Please don't contact me and say, I didn't do credit insurance. And now I never got paid. And now I lost all the money and you owe me this money. Please. I need a disclaimer on this episode, but this is not financial advice. I just feel that. Um, and don't get me wrong, some insurances are great, whatever, but this one, our industry is still a handshake. It's still getting to know who you're dealing with. Make sure you are dealing with a reputable company that you can get referrals from or for referrals, um, about, and find out that these people. Honorable or reliable. Um, and if there is an issue, markets tank by 50%, whatever it is, you're going to get paid and if you're not going to get paid the full amount, they're honorable and they plan to be around for so long that they might renegotiate. That can happen. But it's not going to sink your business. Absolutely. And that's, that's understanding risk management, right? Uh, recently I had a conversation with a company that is looking to hire services and they sell copper chops into the domestic market. And when we look at their book of business, almost 90 percent of what they sell goes to one company. Okay. Now it's great business, right? One, one phone call, monthly contract. But my advice to them is that you should never have that much into one consumer. And the reason is because For so many reasons, wow. For so many reasons, but think about it from a credit assurance standpoint, right? Sure. Uh, the market goes up 40 cents, right? On a 4, 4. 22 average today, year, today. You just lost 10 percent of your credit line. By doing absolutely nothing. Okay. And I don't have to tell you 10 loads of number two copper today, 180, So you just lost 250, 000 plus of credit insurance by just the activity of the market. So you have to really understand this is where the experience of the trading person comes into place because it's not just about, oh, you look, I had the highest price over there. But if that plan goes into a summer shutdown, now you, where are you going to place 90 percent on your scrap for the next 2 months? Vacation that that place take gets new management and they decide to spread their risk and they don't want to buy from you anymore or as much that place gets into some sort of Um credit issue themselves and they can't pay and now listen they pay you three months late Are you able to sustain your business like 90 is a big big number to be supplying? I would I mean I wouldn't supply anybody 30 of my total volume It was, uh, it was a great conversation with this, with this company owner to have that, and we made some recommendations, right? And this is the kind of stuff that we do for these companies, uh, because we go beyond the trading side. You know, we look at these again, the fiduciary responsibility, because we work directly for them, right? And I wouldn't advise anybody to have nothing, 90 percent into one supplier for all sorts of reasons. But you want to be able to have. A spread of your race among certain types of consumers. Uh, that's why the reason, you know, financial advisors will tell you never have all your money into one stock kind of situation. Well, it's, you know, the traders out there are telling you to sell everything to them. Um, but that's what they, that's their business. They're running around and trying to soak up as much as possible. And they would say to you, well, supply everything to me because I'm selling to many different parties. Um, and therefore, you know, you're not as much, well, you're actually at, you're selling 100 percent of your material to one principal buyer, and if there's any issue with them, um, you're in trouble. Also understand who they're selling to, because, um, I had this conversation a while ago, which is. Just know which markets your material is going to and make sure that that one trader isn't putting everything into one buyer, because you then have two pieces of risk. You've got the trader who goes under, you lose everything, or you've got the person that is buying from them who can go under. So make sure that they're at least spreading it, try and spread it out as much as possible. Every time you sell, you should be offering to a minimum five people. I like to say, um, as an operator, making sure that you get. Your risk spread out your geography is tested making sure you know supply and demand different Countries are going through different economic situations at any time Difficult to stay on top of it The least you should be able to do as a metal recycler is offer it into different geographies Um every single time you offer I I have a a few more questions for you though. Although what um What do you think this industry is going to look like in 10 years time? Great question. Since I came on board, uh, you can, you can tell that the demographics and the makeup of our industry is changing. And I think it's changing for the positive. A lot of younger people, more female participation. Uh, I think that we're turning a bit of a page from, from the, uh, a bunch of people in the industry have been with the industry 30, 40 years. I think that first of all, uh, we are more tech oriented. On this new wave of people coming into the industry, which is great. I think that for a long time, uh, you know, we, we have kind of shied away from, from the technology sector. I think that we need to embrace it. And certainly, you know, applications and technologies and computer systems have, have definitely changed that. I think that the next 10 years for us are very critical as an industry. I think that we need to take a more vocal approach to, to, to talk about the benefits of what our industry do and does every day. I'm very happy that a lot of large organizations are staking a seat at the table, but it's not just that. Okay. It's not just that what I mean by that. Think about this kind of podcast 10 years ago, or 5 years ago, even a couple of years ago, imagine somebody coming out with the idea of, oh, let's have a podcast about recycling and trading and, you know, systems. Not such thing existed, but that is the new medium today. It is the yellow pages, uh, uh, uh, part of what we do. This is the new advertisement. And I think that the more we can get engaged people, my kids are 11 and 15 years old, and they have been breaking water meters and pieces of aluminum in my garage for the last 20 years. And all of their friends think that that is so cool. Because I used to bring pieces of, like, scrap and I would just give them hammers and screwdrivers, right? And that's how you get the word out to what we do and the benefits of what we do. The forums are a tremendous opportunity for us to talk about that. I think, I am very excited about the industry. I think that we have some really young, bright people coming into the industry. The technology advances that are going to be here from, from shredding to, to emissions reduction, EV technologies, trading platforms are great. I feel very excited about what's coming up. You touched on so many things there. I'm not quite sure. Um, one I want to talk about is, um, more women in the industry. You know, I remember going to Israel 12 years ago. Um, I'm saying back in the day and, you know, I'd say to my wife, what are you going to come back? There's no point of you coming. It's literally, it's all men. And my wife had the standard job. Oh, you're going to this men's conference again. Right. Um, and now when she came with me, it was like, I was lying. Cause she came with me this last one and she's like, there's heaps of women. I was like, that's because we're promoting it and we're getting it in. And then women are starting to, you know, put their heads up and get involved and say, Hey, I'm in recycling and I enjoy recycling. You know, one of my favorite people in this whole industry in the world is Amy Bird. Um, from the UK, she's been on the show, um, met with her and her lovely, awesome husband, Steve. And she is like the epitome of an incredible metal recycler. Um, and still, you know, brings the whole woman element when she talks about how she looks after her people, like hugs her people when they're having a hard time. a hug and a mug. I think she calls it like, we don't do that, but there's the woman can bring woman can bring such a huge element into our industry and are starting to, and are really having a huge influence. And I'm loving watching it. Like Amy leading the charge in Europe, um, love watching what she's doing. And when I say Amy, there's of course other people doing different things, but Amy is in the yard is an operator, which everybody would have looked at previous since it. Well, that's a man's job, you know, the woman might come through and might be in the finance, might be in a whole lot of other things we would have expected. But there's huge amounts of value coming through. Um, in the operation side as well. And that's huge. And obviously you spoke about things like technology, really exciting, obviously, um, to add value is really what we need. Um, technology left us behind our industry. If you compare it to others. But there's a reason why and I'm actually writing a piece at the moment for a magazine and the reason isn't because technology left us behind. We didn't go trying to create it. Nobody in the technology world can create what we need. What we need is very specialized. We are very different to other industries. The recycling material, recycling industry is completely different. We need to build it for ourselves. We need to have people that have been doing it for a while. Obviously, I'm One of them, my wife, but there are others that are looking at as well, which I love watching and, you know, um, collaborating with, and these are people from the industry going, this would help me. So I'm going to go and build it, right? Don't expect technology to just rock up on our doorstep. No, there is, we're in such an industry that, to your point, we have to be an advocate for our own tools. And that includes technology. Because nobody is going to build it for us. You're absolutely right. Uh, there, the technologies companies, we are not a market segment that is sizable enough for them to say, we're going to create tools that are custom to the recycling industry. It doesn't exist. They don't even know about us. And that's our own fault. Obviously we talk about that as well. Right. But they'd be not promoting ourselves. So nobody's going, Oh, we should help them. We need to help ourselves. Think about it until about three years, until about 10 years. The only platforms that were available to manage the scrapyards were heavily based on Excel sheets. Okay. But exactly until about 10 years ago, when the new systems started with, started coming up where we're all encompassing. But before that, it was a bunch of tools that included Excel. Okay. So, so just think about that part. Excel has been around for, you know, although I still see it everywhere. Everybody's using Excel. I mean, Excel is kind of the number one. Part of everybody's tech stack in our industry. Um, and that's crazy because if you look at how long it's been around for, um, and yeah, we all feel comfortable with it, but if you look at almost every other industry, they have moved on because they found a platform which can help them link all departments all together as one. I still get this surprise clients that we have we set up a portal for them on our website They go they have a key And all their documents are there. We still get questions about hey, can you email me that document? We're like it's available to you 24 7. All you gotta do is you want to download it anytime You tell us who needs permission and we still get the question. Can you send me this by email? Happy to do it. But so, you know, it's available 24 7 That's not gonna change I mean The guys are still printing the emails and keeping it on file on pieces of paper. You know, that is actually happening. So some guys like me, we still have a, have a, have a warm spot for Excel and we utilize it. But let's face it, I think that technology is coming to us fast. And, uh, those tools take a little bit of learning curve like anything else, but I think that people would find them very advantageous to what they do. So last question for you before we just do a quick fire round. Um, who do you want to see next on Born Scrappy? There's so many options, but talking about woman in the recycling industry, I think that my spot will go for Judy Ferraro. Um, I met Judy, uh, probably now going into 17 plus years and I remember she was doing a seminar on commercial training. And I was just at awe about seeing oh, yeah, there you go judy ferrari is crab duck. Yes So she gave that to me at rima. So so full disclosure I might be a little bit biased on my option for judy because she's from chicago. I used to live in chicago I know her there and he was the first person that I saw quote unquote Dominate the topic of commercial and I was like, man, that is so cool and interested. So that would be much Awesome. Love it. Great choice. She will be on Probably in the next season. Well, definitely in the next season hopefully for the season Um, let's quick end with some quickfire questions to get to know you a little bit better favorite tv series or movie favorite tv series or movie well I like the Discovery Channel a lot, anything that has, the History Channel, I'm sorry, a lot. Anything that has to do with history, I'm a nerd for it. Uh, so that would be my favorite, my favorite channel, the History Channel. Okay, that's a good one. Um, favorite place to visit? Oh, Guatemala, this, uh, this accent that you, that you see, that you hear in the background there is because I grew up in Guatemala. I love the country. I go every time I can. Beautiful. Um, favorite book. Wow. Uh, I don't remember the title of this book. I, I actually have it right here. Here it is. Is it holding up your, is it holding up your desk? It is. It is holding up by this. It's called your afternoon. Mentor is from a Hispanic author, Kevin Salcido from Phoenix, Arizona. Uh, it resonated with me because he was, he came on a time that I was searching for what the next phase of my professional career was going to be. Easy read, very useful, short, short read to the point advice on career. Very good. Awesome. Um, lastly, favorite quote, I hope I can recite this one the right way, but I heard somewhere along the lines that you have to be willing to work harder on yourself that you're willing to work on your business. And I think that this person meant that a lot of the work of being an entrepreneur professional has to do with you. Uh, your own skills, your own skills as a person, things like that. And we, uh, a lot of times kind of, uh, kind of think that it's all about professional knowledge and understanding the questions or markets and all of that. But a lot of it has to do with you. That's brilliant. I mean, I can tell you what I've seen and what happens with myself personally, when I'm operating at a higher level or at optimized levels. I can achieve so much more in business, but the only way to get those optimized levels is, um, with me, for example, when I'm meditating, when I'm going for runs in the morning, eating healthy, getting good sleep. That's all about your personal being, right? If you look after yourself. Your business, you can be really successful because if you're not, you're going to give that the rest of it, 50 percent and a 50%, you know, somebody else is giving it 110%. So you're definitely not winning that game. Absolutely. And think about these, how many people have you and I know with, uh, impressive educational backgrounds that sometimes they're not a good fit for an organization where the execution is not what they desire. And a lot of times it doesn't have to be with the amount of degrees of knowledge that they have. It has to do with the personal execution part. Hugely important. Exactly right. Aldo, it's been awesome. Um, loved recording this with you and looking forward to seeing you again soon. Thanks so much for being on Born Scrappy. Oh, there's buddy. I got, I got, I got my stickers right here. My, my kids, uh, took, uh, three of them from the convention and one of them is on their cell phone and the other one was left on my desk here. So I have it. Classic. I'll do it. Thanks mate. Have a good one. Cheers. You too. Take care, buddy. Bye.