S2E18: Partnering with customers on sustainability with GM of Circular by Shapiro Tim Ridderbos

In today's episode, I’m joined by Tim Ridderbos.

Tim is the GM of Circular by Shapiro, and was previously the Director of National Accounts for there. So he definitely knows how to look after our recycling customers!

He's learned how to make a customer a client for life by adding huge value through sustainability reporting, and he gives us some great tips we can implement immediately.

In today’s episode we talk about:

👉 Where to begin with sustainability
👉 Why it won’t happen on zoom
👉 Looking beyond commodities
👉 Educating your customers
👉 Navigating the wild west
👉 And so much more!

Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.

The only marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies.

https://www.tradebuddy.io/
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WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan, and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's special sustainability reporting masterclass, I chat with Tim Ritterbos. Tim is the general manager of Circular, by Shapiro Metals. Before this role, he was the Director of National Accounts for Shapiro, so Tim definitely knows how to look after our recycling customers. He's learned how to make a customer a client for life by adding huge value through sustainability reporting. He gives us some great tips we can implement immediately. In today's episode, we talk about where to begin with sustainability, why it won't happen on Zoom, looking beyond commodities, educating your customers. Navigating the wild west and so much more. So let's jump into it with Tim. But first intro Hey, Tim. How are you, mate? Living the dream. How about yourself? Yeah, absolutely my man. I'm just happy to be in Auckland for a little bit I haven't been spending a lot of time here. So with the family spent the day. Um, Coaching my eldest on the rugby field. So that was fun. But yeah, absolutely living the dream Yeah, but it's good to be home. You've been kind of a world traveler lately Have been moving around a lot. So it's good. I'm here for a few weeks Uh, but I will be in austin any day now, um for the gulf coast event The Rima Gulf Coast event, which is, yeah, I'm really excited about. Very good. Very good. You won't be there, right? I'm not coming to this one. So I've, uh, yeah, the first six months of this year has been a lot of running around too. So I'm taking a little break the next couple of weeks. And then sometime in July, heading out for a big ESG conference in Denver. So, uh, so actually going to, like, be there. Stay in the office, get a bunch of work done, follow up on a bunch of projects that I've, uh, I've been neglecting a little bit and you know, then, then get back on the road here in a couple of weeks to good and ESG. I mean, this is exactly what we're going to be talking about. Really today we delving into sustainability. We want to understand more about it. We want to understand how you got into, we'll start getting into those discussions now, but just so everybody understands, um, you know, how did you Get into recycling and how did you kind of fall into the sustainability side as well? Yeah, yeah, uh, you know, I never pictured myself doing this, you know, I, I got out of college and I went right into finance. I had insurance and investment licenses, you know, didn't really know what I wanted to do. You know, it was interesting, but I didn't like it. It wasn't really tangible. You know, I've got a big history in construction, did that all through high school and college. My family's been in construction. Um, You know, I wanted to do something in that vein. So I actually just started calling the local Caterpillar dealership for like six months until they finally let me have a job. So I moved from finance to, to large heavy equipment, uh, selling cat all over the St. Louis area. And, uh, one of my customers was this company called Shapiro metals. You know, I didn't know anything about scrap. I didn't know anything about the business other than what you see on TV. Uh, you know, it's always where, you know, there's, there's a big gang happening, you know, in the movies or, or, or whatever. So I really didn't know anything. Um, I'd go in there and we'd be selling tractors. Um, and I'd walk by Rick Dobkin's office and he, he'd invite me in. And, you know, I'd ask him questions about, you know, metal markets, right. Cause I had the finance background. So I was interested in commodities. He'd show me a screen to talk to me about it. And, uh, you know, we just, we just kept talking. Um, You know, and then one day I was in there doing a deal with, uh, with Bob Alvarez. He had just come on as the COO of the company. I was noticing a whole bunch of cultural changes, uh, that were all incredibly positive. And, uh, one day as I was walking out, he tapped me on the shoulder, asked me to come back into his office and, uh, You know, ask me if I want to be part of the team. Um, we've talked for about six months and I jumped in. Um, again, didn't know anything about this business, but you know, I jumped in and never looked back. It's a, it's an incredible, incredible issue. Yeah, it sure is. I mean, you, I guess you're speaking to the converted, everybody listening to this, um, very much agrees with you on that. And. You know, we I've spoken to Bob quite a lot and Rick Dobkin's been on the show fantastic people I want to ask what got you into the social media side of it all as well because a lot of people listening Probably know you from your LinkedIn post you come across as a super friendly guy Uh, are you like that in real life? Not sure, but I'm just kidding. Widening up. Great guy in real life. Don't out me, man. Don't out me. And for those of you that don't know, Tim is how tall? Uh, 6'6 Yeah, so, so tiny Tim when we met in, in real life, it was like a bit of a bear hug, um, of a situation going on. But, um, What got you into the social media side of things? Yeah, you know, I really got serious with it. Um, about a year, year and a half ago, Judy Ferraro, who's a big name in the industry, uh, has worked with a lot of companies, really was encouraging our team to be more active. And then I'd see people who were really trailblazers in it, in our industry, you know, thinking of. Sacco, Jennifer Betts, uh, you know, Brett, a few people like that. You know, I, I decided that it really can't hurt, right? I want to, I want to just put myself out there. I want to generate some buzz about Shapiro and what we were doing. And so I just tried. And it was really awkward at first. I really, you know, honestly, even though I'm a salesman and I, you know, do all the sales stuff, uh, for, for most of my career anyway, you know, I, I really, you know, don't like the camera that much. Um, but, but I wanted to lean into it. And so I did. And. Then I started getting a little bit of success from it, a little bit of opportunity, a little bit of, um, interesting things started happening, you know, I'd get this opportunity to speak on a panel. I got this opportunity to meet these people over here. This person reached out, you know, with an opportunity, I'd go to an Israel event now, Rima and someone would come up to me and say, hey, I saw your post on LinkedIn and it's been, uh, you know, just a real easy conversation starter. And once that flywheel started spinning. And I saw the benefit to, to being out there, to representing what Shapiro is doing, what I'm doing to, you know, just position myself as someone who wants to get to know other people in this industry, especially not being a lifer. I mean, I'm only seven years into this thing, right? You know, some people are three generations in, uh, you know, so to speak, like, like Bruce and her owner. Um, you know, so it was really a way to supercharge. Um, just my opportunity to meet folks and yeah, I mean, some, some of the opportunities that have come from it, some things that I'm working on right now that are 100 percent only resulting from the social media stuff, it's been incredible. it's going to be real exciting to see where that goes, you know, throughout the next 12 months. Yeah. Yeah, totally. And I agree wholeheartedly on the social media stuff. Everybody should be doing it. It's a great way to meet people and yeah, to move ahead in this industry. But tell me, you know, you've been doing this for seven years, but you speak about sustainability more than the rest of us. So you've been doing that for longer than all of us. And that's what I wanted to have you on to talk to us a little bit more about. How we can communicate sustainability better, right? So that's not the question, but I think. I hope that's what we'll come across throughout this episode. And by the end of it, people go, okay, well, when I meet with my clients and my customers that supply me recycled material, I actually can do more, provide them with more data and more reporting, and they will benefit from that. And, and that will make them a, you know, a better client and et cetera, et cetera. Well, I will be seen as a better service provider, et cetera. So. Let's go back to the beginning of the journey. When you joined Shapiro, were they heavy in sustainability? You know, I'll say from a very high level, we were metals focused only, and that is essential sustainability, right? Recycling metal is such an important thing, you know, everybody in this industry knows the stat, you know, if you recycle aluminum, it's 95 percent more efficient than mining new material out of the ground, right? I mean, it is so important for what we do. Um, you know, as I said, As I said, and I thought to myself, hold on, what do you mean? Were they in sustainability? So carry on. But I think the point is more along the lines of, were you promoting the sustainable side of our business or were you just operating as a metal recycler? I think you're exactly right. I mean, that's the transition that we're talking about, right? Yeah, crap company thinking about scrap in terms of scrap, in terms of commodity, in terms of something that you buy and sell, you know, or are we thinking about it in the lines of the story that we can tell around, you know, Um, you know, I think I'll also, you know, point out that, that at the time, you know, you know, Shapiro this year is 120 years old for about 113 of those years, you know, it has been only a metals focus and there, there's a lot more to sustainability than, than only metals. Again, it's super essential, but in Shapiro's case, we're only working with industrial manufacturers. So, you know, you can't bring an old car to us, an old washing machine. We're only in factories that are building stuff specifically out of metal, but that's that's our customer base, right? And so, you know our evolution really came as our most Forward thinking customers started to evolve, started to think about sustainability in a broader context and start coming to us with problems, you know, and it was really this, this leaning in mentality that the company has this, this opportunity to fail and learn and try and, and, and do new things that really brought us onto this sustainability journey where we can look at things a little more holistically, you know, sustainability, ESG, all that stuff, um, you know, We're going to hear about it more and more. Um, you know, a lot of people are already hearing about it a lot, but I think it's going to affect every one of us as the future moves on. And really, really from Shapiro's perspective, we had one incredible opportunity. One of our biggest customers reached out to us. They were having an issue with trash, uh, you know, and we're, we're a scrap metal company. We don't, we don't want to take care of your trash. We don't want to handle that. At least that was, you know, a mentality that we carried for a long time. Uh, but certainly under Bob's leadership and, and, and, and the rest of the leadership team, you know, we got this opportunity from a customer and we looked at it in a different way. We looked at it beyond just commodities. We looked at it and how we can, we tell a story. How can we. Make it more sustainable. And how can we do something that's going to keep material out of the landfill help save our customers a bunch of money and do something better for the planet. Um, you know, and so this, this specific opportunity, this customer had, uh, somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 trash pickups a year that were all going to the landfill. They were very light loads in a roll off. Um, we put in some compactors, we started monitoring their payloads, we diverted all that waste from the landfill to a waste to energy facility, and through that process we were able to pull out a whole bunch of cardboard that was being landfilled and get that recycled as well. You know, the net benefit of the program was essentially, we recycled a ton more cardboard. We converted that into trees. We told them how many trees they saved, uh, you know, through all that cardboard they recycled. Instead of having these 400 trips to the landfill every year now, they only had something in the neighborhood of 50 a year, a little less than 50. So, 350 diesel burning trucks going back and forth to landfill weren't burning diesel anymore. That was all gone. And, uh, Through the efficiency of the program, we save the customer about 150, 000 a year in the trash bill. Um, you know, and again, we weren't doing it for an award. We didn't even know about an award, but, but at the end of the year, we ended up winning the, for this big national fortune 500 company, their global, uh, supplier award for sustainability, uh, in, in 2020. And it was, it was a real eye opener. It was a pivotal moment for us where we could You know, we really took a step back and said, Hey, you know, there's something to this where we are making positive impacts in the world. We're making heroes out of our customers. And, you know, the added benefit is we're, we're starting to be thought of as people that can figure out solutions beyond just what we've been traditionally known for. It's I go back 20 years ago I was buying from customers. So, um a rep a business development manager What do you want to call it? For really large metal recycling company in south africa and I was in durban at the time And the largest account we had was toyota. It was a huge toyota plant And we handled all the metal on their site and i'll never forget losing that account to a Waste company But what they were offering was reporting and data on all the waste streams. So we ended up still buying the metal, but now we didn't hold the contract anymore. And it's quite interesting because You want to be that person that holds that contract if you hold the contract you have the power going forward Right all of a sudden they started putting that out on like monthly tenders and then you know quarterly reviews And whereas we had a five year contract before that. So you were always getting the metal now You're fighting with every other competitor It's the ability to see which customers and we'll talk about later probably which customers are the right for this Which customers you're able to offer more value at and not to just think I handle metal, therefore I do the metal. When you go for a walk in their business, and you see that they have, like you say, a whole lot of cardboard, paper, whatever it might be, other material that is recyclable, that is going to landfill, offer your assistance. Get in there and and I think when we start speaking sustainability You know, we're all sustainable. We're recyclers. We've been doing forever, but I think that's kind of how i'm Pitching this term now. It's kind of like how do we offer more sustainability to our customers? So, how do we help them and We go in there and we see it and we think oh, well, this is simple I'm sure they would know how to do this but they don't because they're not a logistics company like we are because we Realistically, we're a logistics company collecting material from people. So They can't see that. They also don't know what is recyclable What isn't the waste companies are saying just throw everything in here because they're going to sort it out Whatever they can and make whatever bucks they can on the other side, but most of it is ending up in landfill So Whereas we can come in from the recycling on. So I think it's a great way to start this conversation with that's how I see sustainability. Exactly how you came in is what I experienced from the other side where we actually lost the account because, and over the long term, Teoda Chushu ended up coming in and taking all the recyclables anyway, but I think it was because they had started to learn well, Let's look at sustainability as an enterprise or as a company and how can we do things better? We'll bring it all into one place and sort it. Not everybody can do that, but we can help smaller enterprises do that. We can help smaller companies do that. And that's where I think you have a decent amount of passion and more experience than most of us in that field, right? Yeah, well, and, you know, 1 thing you said to, I mean, really, I think you nailed it. It's the education part. Um, you know, our, our customers, you know, they're, they're drowning in this stuff. They, they've got all these goals that are set by their boards. They've got. Very small sustainability departments, you know, most of the time, this stuff ends up in procurement anyway. So it's somebody who really doesn't care so much about the sustainability. They're just trying to run a spreadsheet and get their bonus at the end of the year. Um, and so they don't really have the systems thinking down to really make the improvements as long as they can save 10 percent on their, their hauling costs a year. Squeeze out another few pennies, you know, from, from a metal bit on a spreadsheet. So, you know, I think that's been one of the biggest jobs. You know, that I've, I've had over the last few years that, that a lot of other folks on our team have had is just the education of our customers. I mean, I can't tell you how many times we've sat with a new procurement person and taught them how, you know, fast markets works, right. Taught them how formula works on their metal. They don't, they don't know that stuff. Taught them what stuff is recyclable. What's not, why you should mail this. Tim, I'm going to jump in. I need to jump in and stop because it's right in the beginning. The main point of all of that was what you said a minute ago. Which was, you spoke to them, you sat with them, you explained to them. If you expect the metal to just arrive at your door, It's one day going to stop. Yeah, you have to be proactive You have to have a team or own operator Whoever it is going to be I remember sitting with garrett tracy in his yard at sims brothers Oh, maybe two three months ago, and he had some seriously peculiar material Like, I'm like, what is that? Like, why that's not even metal. It's like, Oh, because I went onto a site and the guy said they couldn't manage it. This is what they were paying to get rid of it. And he worked out, well, he could actually sell that material. And he brought it in and bailed it and handled it in a different way. And, and we had this conversation and they were able to make money and they saved the client a huge amount of money on it. And why did that happen? Because he was in front of the client. Yeah. Yeah, not waiting for it to arrive. Yeah. Yeah. I, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I, I think, you know, COVID changed a lot of things and how people do business and zoom and teams and stuff. Certainly it's got its place and saves, you know, you from burning jet fuel to fly out somewhere for whatever. But I'll tell you what, I mean, there's never going to be a replacement for actually getting on site, showing up, walking around the customer facility and things change. Like you might've walked it, you know, six months ago. But, you know, we're dealing with the right now with the customer out in Richmond, Virginia. I mean, they, they're adding a whole new line right now. So, you know, 2 months ago, they didn't have glass. They didn't even have aluminum. They just had steel over there. You know, now we're shipping a new equipment. We're looking for new partners for the glass. We're setting up some new logistics over there. You know, And it really comes from just showing up. I mean, you know, had we not shown up, they were literally going to throw all that aluminum in their steel can. Um, you know, which, which, you know, I mean, I guess a scrappy person might enjoy that. I would also say one of the biggest things we do for our customers is just try and tell them every bit of information that we can give them. Because if they're happy, if we're adding that value, we'll report that increase. We'll say, okay, Hey, you were going to throw this all in the, and you'll roll off, you know, here's your, your total tonnage of aluminum this year. Here's how much we paid you. You know, this is the type of partnership that we want with our customers. And, and it, it, it doesn't happen on zoom. It doesn't happen, you know, when you're not in the plant, you've got to get on site, you've got to walk it, you've got to be familiar, not just with, you know, The procurement person or the SG person or the plant manager. You got to talk to the guys who are running the machine material handlers. You know, we had this one situation Tulsa a couple of years ago, big aerospace company, so big. In fact that they needed like a half a million dollar machine, uh, for, Just specifically there's 70 50 aluminum and we started getting some downgrades on it We noticed there was some mixing in it. So we got on site. We walked around We actually spent a couple days there because it was a significant revenue difference for this customer for you know Mixed aerospace versus just straight 70 50 obviously on the volumes that they had and we were walking around We were talking to the guys on the ground the material handlers And we ended up identifying the problem in this case The lowest paid guy with the highest turnover In the whole facility, historically, there's a guy who drives the forklift from the pucking machine to the roll off where we're collecting the pucks, and that guy was always getting replaced, was always, or that position was always getting replaced, there was always somebody new in that forklift seat, um, lowest paid guy in the entire organization. Well, that guy, we calculated it was something like 250 or 300, 000 worth of revenue in his hands, just based on where he would dump his pucks and what he would dump into that pocket machine. And so we ended up actually getting some good conversations with management there. You know, we, we don't obviously control people's page scale, but, you know, we help tell them like, Hey, like this is a key critical, you know, uh, piece of your organization. It affects your bottom line in a huge way, you know, and we helped them identify it. You know, we went into, we did a whole bunch of training for all their operators and machines. And, uh, you know, after that, we really didn't have any problems with it. But again, we wouldn't have been able to help them. And we just try to do it all via zoom So, you know, I think that's such a big lesson got to get on site get those boots on Shake some hands and meet meet everybody you can because you know, it might be that guy at the machine That's going to tell you a little bit of information. Oh, yeah, jimmy He's been here for like three days just like the last three jimmies that we hired that guy That position never sticks around So critical so yeah, absolutely. I agree completely tell me what is What's the sentiment at the moment on the manufacturing side when it comes to sustainability? Um, are you having to knock on doors are people coming to you? Um, are they happy to hear from you? Yeah, yeah. You know, we, we've got a lot of people coming to us. Um, you know, certainly new, new business opportunities for sure. But, you know, a lot of our existing accounts are looking for help in a lot of different ways. They're lost. You know, I remember just a year ago, we were up in Chicago at a corporate office with the head of the H and S for a couple of years. Again, another large company and we were asking questions, you know, Hey, what, what's your plan for scope one? What's your plan for scope two? What are you thinking for scope three? And, you know, I'll never forget it. But this, this head of DHS, you know, kind of looked at their counterpart there and their counterpart kind of look back at them and, you know, Kind of did one on, I don't know. Um, you know, and when we go to conferences for ESG that are specifically for CFOs and different folks, you know, ESG positions within these companies, what we keep hearing is there's just a lot of confusion. There's a lot of trepidation. There's understaffed departments and there's not a lot of data to support any of it. Everybody's kind of in the wild west. We're trying to figure out what solution they're gonna have to really expensive, high end, you know, fully built out systems to, you know, Hey, we're running this whole thing on a spreadsheet until we can get somebody else to help us. So it's, uh, it's a lot. Some of the stuff falls into our purview. I mean, obviously, you know, we're trying to take a broad stance on sustainability, you know, materials, commodities, um, you know, even some circular programs we're doing with customers and some of it doesn't. I mean, their energy uses and that sort of thing. They're going to be looking for potentially other solutions outside of what we can offer. But, you know, I think one of the things that we've done a really good job with is building an ecosystem of solutions so that even if it's not something that I can help with, you know, hey, there's this consultant group over here that does this or hey, there's this guy over here. That's really plugged in with the Department of energy and there's money over here for this type of project. And so we really want to, you know, if we can't be helping, we just want to be making friends with people and helping them make friends with people that can bring solutions. Thank you. An ecosystem of solutions. That's a, that's pretty cool. I love that. I mean, people could use that in their business in so many different ways. I think it's a brilliant term. I'm definitely going to be using it. Very, very cool. Tell me now, when you are meeting with these CFOs, CFOs want data, they want numbers, right? When it comes to data and sustainability and reporting, What, I guess, what could we be doing now for our clients and where do you see the edge or the opportunity? Yeah, you know, I think a lot of folks in this industry, you know, especially the big players that are going in the right direction with it. You know, I had a customer a couple of years ago, again, just sticking to the commodity side where. You know, and I guess I'll back up too. We are really getting to the point where we don't do a lot of business blind. We ask for data. We want to know what's going on, what you've done in the past, you know, what your current situation looks like. So we'll ask people for this information. We had one a couple of years ago. It was a, it was a customer that their sites spanned Canada, Mexico, and really coast to coast here in the United States. And we asked for their data and every site had a different story. Who was supposed to collect the data, where it was, it was all very disparate. Nothing was put together. They had, you know, However, many different vendors handling, however, many different commodities and there was one in particular down in Monterey, Mexico, where we finally got the data after like 6 months of asking for it. And there was 3 commodities. It was steel, it was cardboard, and it was wood. That was it. And some volumes and, you know, whatever. And so we. We dug into it. We got on site. We looked around. We found a bunch of stuff like copper was going in the trash. I mean, it was, it was wild. Um, you know, so, so we ended up getting in. Right. And. I'd like you to introduce me, if you can introduce me to that client, I know a couple ways to make money there. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, they, they did. I mean, they did. I mean, we, we went down there and, you know, after six months, we ran a report for, for the corporate guy we were working with and he was thrilled. We were on track for, you know, six figure improvement for him, obviously. And we 17 different commodities, um, you know, out of, out of those three that we were originally given. You know, it's, it's, it's. Hugely helpful for them. They have to understand, you know, what's leaving their facility. This is all important stuff Not only that, you know, the other thing is they can't get better, you know, unless they measure it to start I mean scope one two, and three the csrd in the eu, you know is not here just for fun It's not here just for people to have an exercise. I mean the whole purpose of all this stuff is to get better So if you go back to the example of of you know, us doing that waste energy program You You know, now I've got data that I can report to the customer, you know, we can say, hey, congratulations. You've done all this, the savings you've, you've improved your payload. You've taken all this stuff out of the waste out of the trash and brought into waste energy or recycling. High 5, but I also notice, hey, your payloads are different. They're like. You know, five tons, you really should be at six, seven tons with the equipment we have on site there, you know, you can have another 20 percent efficiency, 20 percent savings. You know, if you do this, this, and this, we're going to help you monitor it. Right. So it's, it's really, especially from the materials side, like if you can help baseline it and measure it for them, that's like the first step in actually helping them get better, you know? And, and again, I mean, unless you're. Proactive like that. Um, you know, I got a million stories just like your, your Toyota story where, you know, you just end up on the spreadsheet. Uh, it's the worst feeling when you do that. And, and, and again, unless you're proactive about it, I mean, we, we had one, I mean, it was a long term customer. I think Shapiro had it for like 20 years. It had been bought and then bought again, and then was owned by private equity, um, also in Chicago, it turns out. And. You know, they got this new guy out of college, didn't know anything about scrap. We spent a year educating him and he decided, you know, the whole company decided, you know, to put it all on spreadsheet. It was 100 percent spreadsheet and we worked so hard on it. I mean, I remember working with Judy Ferraro on Christmas night, like at 11 o'clock at night, trying to finish up some, some proposals and some PowerPoints we had and this whole big presentation. And, you know, after all that, we lost it. It was just. It was just a spreadsheet, a 20 year relationship, none of it mattered. And so, you know, it, it helps our industry to be proactive. It helps our individual businesses to be proactive. You know, at the end of the day too, it's helping to make the planet better together as we're working with each other in that ecosystem, as we're working with our customers. Um, you know, so, so all that is, is again, going to continue to grow and important. You know, it's the kind of stuff that I talk about on LinkedIn, you know, a whole bunch of us talk about it. Be proactive. Build your own future. Don't look back and kick yourself and go, Oh, I should have, or, or this happened to me. Well, what we're saying is that this is happening. So be aware of it. Start making the changes, start implementing where you can or what you can, which hopefully we'll go into a little bit more as well, what they can do about it. But know that there is more of a focus on the term sustainability and just recycling your metal isn't enough anymore. And I'm not talking about from outside. I'm talking about from our customers, where the metal comes from. It's not enough for them to just recycle it. They need to report on it. Right, they need to report on the other way streams, but that's a headache They don't want to do that themselves Let one of these people that are currently servicing them whether it's a waste provider a metal recycler Whether it's a you know, a whole bunch of other service providers whoever's gonna put their hand up and say well I'll do that reporting for you They're gonna probably give it to them because it's something you can take off and like you said It's usually a procurement guy He isn't wanting to do this. He doesn't want to sit with all these spreadsheets Somebody come to me and just handle it for me and you can have the whole contract and the rest of them can all answer to you Yeah, know that that's going to happen everybody And be proactive and let the metal recyclers hold it. We want to hold those contracts, but don't let it get taken from you Yeah, and there's going to be competition not just from this industry I mean waste management is dumping, you know a lot of money I mean, they bought another company last week in the sustainability space I mean, you know, there's a lot of people getting in in a lot of different directions and you're right You know, there's there's going to be people on top and there's you know It's going to be people underneath that that do end up on the spreadsheets, right? You know, and so it's going to be that continual innovation that continual, you know being on site that continual leaning in to find those solutions Um In the sustainability space is really going to be key in the future. So, so Tom, let's imagine you're going to your customer. You currently are a, um, a service provider. They, I always say to my guys, they see you as a logistics person that you're just connecting their buttons for them, right? how can you go in there and sell this for the first time to somebody? So before they come to you. Which could be years down the line, but it's coming before they come to you. How can the listeners go? Well, I'm going to be proactive. I've got a really good accountant. I know that they do waste and do some cardboard. I'm going to take on all the reporting and therefore hold the key at this customer and the relationship. How do you go in there and sell that for the first time? You know, I think the thing that you got to start with is the fact that even the most sustainable companies right now. Are not going to do any sustainability program unless there's a business case to it You could have all these different ideas and all these different things that are really great But you have to make sustainability sustainable. Like that's the very first thing I mean the most forward thinking most sustainable companies we work with They still require the business case. And so that's, that's something that you're always going to have to think about. They're, they're not going to move forward without that. What are the big ticket items? What are the big things that you're seeing that could improve? Um, you know, I also think you want to get as many stakeholders in your corner as possible and understand what their goals are. You know, a lot of what we do at our company is upfront websites, understanding, you know, what's in their sustainability reports. You know, all the big guys are putting those out these days. They're telling you in those reports, exactly what they want to do. Are they interested in water savings? Are they interested in energy? Do they have the zero landfill goal? I mean, they're, they're giving you the path and the nice thing about it is if they're procurement, you know, again, more CEOs and C level folks are now compensated on hitting sustainability goals than ever before. I mean, the, these metrics are the same things that are going to get. You know, the people that you're working with the Christmas bonus. So that that upfront research to look at these things, you know, it's the pathway. So I always start there, especially if you haven't had the sustainability conversations with your, with your customers. Um, that that's a great place to begin. So I, I always love the sales side of things and obviously for our industry we're buying but we're sales people. Um, And usually on Bourne scrappy, we usually focus on that. Trading side I think there's a different sales, but now on the sales side what you just said it gave me an idea. So Walk into your relationship person. So the person you have a relationship with at a key account of yours, who's supplying you material, do your homework first, find out what their C suite is talking about. So what the big bosses want achieved, and it's coming out in their reports, right? And if they're not that big and they don't have those reports, try to do your homework where possible and walk into the procurement manager's office and say, I have a way to make you the rockstar. Mm hmm. And if you can do that, you're his best friend. Yes. And you say, you know, that reporting that they're probably asking for, and you don't have the time for, let me do it for you. We're already taking away 90 percent of your material. Like, let me do it for you. But in order to do it, let's talk about an agreement where, you know, I look after your, your waste as well, but they'll just subcontract out to me. As soon as somebody feels that you're there to actually add value and help them personally like you hear what i'm saying like You're their best friend It's the most beautiful thing when that happens. I mean, when you become the easy button that they're picking up the phone and calling when they got an issue when they're looking for. I mean, I've got 1 customer where, you know, we did a bunch of great stuff for him. High fives made it up to the C suite. You know, big, you know, again, multi location manufacturer, everything was great and he realized what we could do when we don't think about things in a spreadsheet, when we think about things from a systems perspective, we became as easy button and it was incredible. He'd set up calls. With other sites in the organization, I wouldn't say a word for the first 10 minutes. This guy gets on and he talks about how great Shapiro was, what we did, how we help, what we can do, you know, the things that we want to talk about. I mean, they literally, you know, they sell for you. So when you get honest, okay, I need this data and here's what I'd like to do. And here's, you know, here's where I want to start. And everybody's jazzed and going the same direction. I mean, it's, it's the most beautiful thing. Um, when you get to that point and, and it takes, you know, can take a long time. Sometimes it's about being in that, in that seat, that territory, that customer, you know, for a while, this is a slow moving business for the most part. When you're trying to acquire new accounts or break in or find something new and great to do for somebody. But when those opportunities happen, you got to lean in. You got to take it because when you start flowing with a customer like that. You're not even in different companies anymore. You're on the same team. You're working for the same role and it's beautiful. That's exactly right. So, um, I say, you know, once you're in mock your territory. So what I mean by that is. When you have that relationship i'll never forget we had an incredible commercial manager He used to look after all of the customers and he used to place massive like Posters, they were like billboards On at the waste wherever the waste streams were sorted at a large account, right? We've got all the multiple bins You've got paper you go And he's put a massive sign there and it would used to say like other company was called the reclamation group And you would say like the reclamation group and toyota working hand in hand for sustainability Right Anybody who goes there is going well, we know who runs this place All right, and the way the client loves it because when they bring in the executives what they see is Them and a recycling company working hand in hand for sustainability Like it's a massive advert on their own site when they bring in any key stakeholders Like it's a great. It's a great visual for for these guys and Usually they walk in there. It's a big mess. Now there's a big sign that says, you know, we working hand in hand. So that's what I mean by market territory, like get in there and then own that space. But look, we can talk about customer service and keep going further and further and further down that Avenue. What barriers are there for implementing this sort of sustainability program? So. John walks in or Joe walks in and he goes and he says, Hey mate, I look after all your metal. Let me give you some sustainability reporting. What are the blockers he's going to have? You know, I think the biggest one is the priority list, right? So I've, I've got deals hanging out there right now for tens of thousands. A couple of them are six figures of savings for a customer, you know, in my business, I think that's incredible. Boy, if I can save you six figures, you know, This is wonderful. Like what a great deal. This is the most exciting thing that I'm doing. Like, I'd love it. And then you talk to him. It's like, okay, that's great. But I'm putting in a 30 million automated line to make my product. Right. You know, you're a hundred thousand dollars. That's super, you know, if I'm, you know, You know close to getting my my bonus this year and I need some more savings, you know, I'll talk to you Right, so that's that's the biggest thing and unfortunately in our industry The problem is at least from from our manufacturer customer perspectives is you know Waste is always the thing that's the last thing that they think about it's you know, usually a program that was set up. It's You know, again, they don't have data. They don't have KPIs around it. It's, it's the Wild West. There's not a lot of tracking. There's not a lot of data out there for a lot of customers. Some have it, but a lot don't still. Um, It's the wild west and it's a hassle, it's trouble, it's change. And so, you know, of, of all the barriers that you run into, it's that. And the only thing that I've figured out to overcome that, well, it's really two things. It's consistent persistency. You are going to be with them. You're going to follow up when you're in town. You're. You know, ask them to have a meal with you or if they're busy or dropping off donuts in your hat or whatever, like, you know, just so that they know that you were there and you might do that for a couple of years and then one day they have a bad day with their provider and you're the first card on the stack and you're getting to make the change there, but that can take years and it has taken years in a lot of cases, but I'm not saying the second thing persistence beats resistance. That's it. That's it. It's water dripping on a rock, man. It'll, it'll, it'll, it'll open that thing up eventually. And you know, then the other thing is it's, it's pipeline, right? I don't know about everybody else's business, but again, it can take years for us to bring on a new account. Right? And that's just, even when you've got a great story to tell, it can take years to do it. The only other, you know, antidote to that, yeah. Is building a huge pipeline like it doesn't matter if an account takes two years to close if you've got 100 opportunities that are all real and that you're being persistent on that you're following up on that you're continuing to develop, you know, that as you're closing stuff, you're still filling that pipeline, um, you know, Then, okay, that's great. You know, I'm not in a rush that that also helps as you're dealing with your customers. You're not freaking out if they're delaying. You're not being pushy. You're going to be there when it's their time, right? You're going to be ready for when it rises to the level of their priority list. You're going to push him a little bit. You're going to talk to him. You're going to you're going to try and find all the ways that you can make it happen. But, you know, if you've got a big, solid pipeline that you're confident in. Like that puts you in such a great position when you're having these conversations because you want to help But you can't care more about it than they do You're you're not going to make progress until it's at the top of their Tim, what's the one thing, if I went into that one client right now, what's the one thing I should try and sell them on? Because you don't want to get in there and offer them the world, especially for the guys that aren't as advanced as you and Shapiro are at offering the service, you go into your customer, you currently have, and you want to offer, where should you start? I mean, it, it can look so different for everybody. I mean, but I'll tell you, there's so much low hanging fruit out there. And almost every customer that's out there that you have. There is something that's an issue. There's something that's a cost overrun. There's something that's being mixed. You know, but generally there's going to be low hanging fruit and whether that's, Hey, you guys are sending out all this loose cardboard and why are you doing that? Or, you know, Oh, you're not getting paid for this, or this is all mixed over here. I mean, that's the easy, basic stuff, you know, that, that you can look for. Oh, Hey, I see that, you know, 75 percent of what's in your dumpster over there is the usable pallets. Well, Hey, let me tell you something, instead of paying to have those picked up and paying to have them, you know, hauled to the landfill, you know, we can give you a little credit. Okay, and then build the business case right build the business case make it easy for them You know, that's always going to be things that you can put in your favor when you're thinking about it So it's not necessarily something like arriving at their door and say hey I can report on your waste Which is what I was probably thinking. It's more about go and find A pain point where they don't even know it's painful yet Make it painful by telling them so find something There's a lot of cardboard going in your ways You're paying for that you could get paid to have it removed. You can then add it into some sustainability scorecard, etc, etc All of a sudden now that becomes a pain point and then give them a way to solve the problem That's what you should be looking for. So, so you can't answer where the easy way is to go in, but you're saying that everybody's going to have an opportunity. Spend your time in the business looking for it. Yeah, and don't make assumptions, right? Like, you know, somebody might not care at all at the level that you're speaking with, might not care at all about the reporting. In fact, you know, he, like many companies, you know, doesn't have enough labor. He's stretched too thin. He's doing three other people's jobs because they've all left or been fired or whatever. And he just needs things to be easy. He can't add another thing to his plate. Um, so you also gotta be real sensitive to what somebody's really thinking about at any given moment. Cause you might be saying, Hey, sustainability, Hey data. And he might just be saying, Hey, I'm drowning. I can't think of another thing that to add to my plate, another project. And so again, I mean, there's a lot of long term, you know, relationships that you're going to build. And, you know, the other thing too, is if you get the luxury, you know, if you're a new business development, to work with people that you just generally want to be with people that are your friends, people that you can make friends with people that you got the same interest with, like. The relationship changes. It becomes something where, Hey, like I'm in town, let's grab a lunch. Let's hang out. Let's go to the game. Let's go, you know, sporting clay shooting or fishing or whatever you want to do. Um, you know that then you're hanging out with someone that you just enjoy hanging out with. It's always going to be a commercial relationship, right? You always keep that in mind, but you know, finding those types of people that you just naturally click with, that's a way to, you know, Build friends in business and eventually do some business together too. But that's a whole that's a whole nother episode on sales like that. I could talk about for days. I absolutely Um, let's just stick to sustainability though. How do you identify the kind of customers that you can go and Have an impact with and try and go with that angle You know, I think we've got to be aligned in our cultures. Um, you know, Shapiro's tagline is, you know, make the planet better together. Uh, and that's what we want to do. We are interested in working with customers, um, who have that. Idea as well. There's a pretty big customer that I'm thinking of and let's just say they make widgets You know and they they wouldn't call themselves a maker of widgets They would call themselves a sustainability company who happens to make widgets that are going to help with sustainability, right? And so, you know if you're in the sustainability game, you know, it's important to think about Are you talking to somebody who's really receptive to the message that you got, or are you talking to somebody who, you know, maybe he's just greenwashing. Maybe they just say it. They don't really care because there's a lot of that happens too, because you kind of got to say it. If you're a corporate company, you kind of got to, you know, make these commitments and talk about these things. And you got to put out your report. And you can tell pretty quickly, um, you know, especially in the H and S group and seeing, you know, what's going on. What type of resources that group has and how much pull that group has, uh, in, in the, in the epic fight between EH& S sustainability and the purchasing department, you know, and kind of who wins those battles and who's able to say, Hey, we want to do this because it's the right thing to do. Um, so as, as you continue to learn a little more about the company culture, you're going to see if it aligns with you, what your goals are. And again, you're That's that's going to help you jump in the stream, catch the current and move things along a lot. Okay, Tim. So what are the three things? That if somebody listening wanted to go and and start pitching this to their customers What are the three things you think they should start and can start doing immediately? Yeah, you know, I think the 1st and biggest thing is education. Um, you know, I thought I knew about recycling until I actually started to get educated on it. And again, I'm not a lifer. When I started getting formal education in this, I had been in the business for, Yeah, about five and a half years. So I knew a lot about recycling, but I didn't really think about things and systems. I didn't think about things in the ecosystems. I didn't think about things on a global perspective or where some of the issues are from an economic perspective, like the, the education has allowed me to have. Better conversations with, you know, the sustainability counterparts in these big corporations, right? They are smart. They've all come to school for it. They are generally incredibly passionate about it, and they are locked in to what is happening from a legislative standpoint, from an economic standpoint, from, you know, all the things that they need to be thinking about. They're doing that every day. And, you know, again, I'm, I'm trying to get just a little bit of credibility in that space. Um, you know, as I continue to learn. But it's, it's so important to do that. And, and a lot of companies have, um, you know, education, uh, payback opportunities, right? I think most of, I've pretty much only worked for small. I, I think almost every single one of them has had some sort of tuition reimbursement program. And so that'd be the first thing I'd do is, man, if you got the margin in your time and And your company supports it. I'd start going after that right away in that vein as well. There are a lot of people in this industry who are really, really smart with sustainability. Uh, the first one I think about is Carrie Bliss from Padnos. She was really the first one in the industry where, or, you know, I saw she was a real cycler as, as the Padnos folks say. And I was able to sit down and have a conversation with her, and she started opening my eyes to plastics and other stuff and helping me think about things in a way that, you know, I had not thought about before. And that, I think that was a pivotal thing just to really start me on my own journey, say, Hey, there's a lot more to this recycling game than, than I, than I know. And I, I've got to get smart on it quick. There was only one thing. It was a really long thing. That's a big thing. It's a big thing. Still one thing. Still one thing. So what we could start with now is education. Is there anything else you would touch on there? Or do you think that's where everybody It's probably a great point anyway. Everybody should start educating. So, okay, so you spoke to Who else? I mean, what else can people do right now? If somebody says, I want to go see, start seeing customers, but first I want to get educated is, you know, do they go look for a college degree? Obviously not. I mean, they're not going to say, yeah, there's certificates out there. There's programs out there. If you Google sustainability certificate. There'll be a million that pop up, you know, if anybody's got questions on a couple of things, you know, reach out to me, I'd be happy to kind of point you in a couple different directions. Uh, but, but those resources are abundant, um, at all different levels. I mean, from, you know, a couple hundred bucks to, to, to get you in the door on an online, you know, at your own pace type class. I mean, they're, they're everywhere. So it's pretty, pretty available if, if, again, you got the time and the backing to do it. Did you start with sustainability for dummies? You know the big yellow book with with that with this big guy in the front that was it yeah, that was you man Awesome. Okay, so we ran it here This has gone on for way too long with the perfect amount of time loving it But you know from experience that we can sit and chat for days. So who would you like to see next on born scrappy? Oh boy. All right. Well, i've got a few. I mean, I think carrie bliss would be great You Anna Tompkins from Sims would be awesome. Definitely got to put Bob Alvarez out there, but don't want to go too Shapiro heavy on your show. You've already had Rick. Now you got me waiting for Bob. I'm waiting for Bob. We meant to be doing it. He is, he is one of the most dynamic guys out there. And then, um, throw, throw out a wild card. Steve Zoosman from Metro out on the West coast. He is just a real dynamic guy. Super interesting. Every time I'm with them, I'm just kind of sitting there like this, just, you know, he's a great to listen to. So I've, I've really appreciated working with his business and getting to know him. Brilliant. Um, yeah, I'm going to reach out to him. Let's end in the normal way quick fire favorite tv series or movie. All right. I got to go clear and present danger Uh, one of the best movies of all time man. I probably watch it once a year. So like early 90s Yeah, early 90s harrison ford. I mean, it's it's It's, it's, it's incredible, you know, CIA stuff and black ops and it's, oh, it's great. It's really, you can't really hide, but you're six foot six. You're not really getting in through little areas and hiding. We'd see you. No, no, not at all. Favorite place to visit. Oh, Holland, Michigan. So got a lot of family from there. Uh, I'm a hundred percent Dutch. So I get my Dutch kick when I go up there. It's a, it's a beautiful place, right? Right on Lake Michigan. Is it called Holland, Michigan? Like Holland, Michigan. Yeah. Oh yeah. And there's a lot of Dutch people there. Very Dutch. Yes, very Dutch. There's a windmill island. There's a tulip time festival. Um, in fact, if you want to get your own wooden shoes, you can go to the wooden shoe factory and they'll fit you up with a pair. I've actually been looking for some, so my wife will be excited. Wonderful, wonderful. I know a guy. I know a guy. Yeah, hook me up, man. What's, um, have you got a favorite book? Um, you know, recently I read Superabundance, which is a sustainability book. It's pretty interesting. It's a little contrarian to a lot of the current sustainability thought, but I think it's really good to hear both sides of arguments. Um, you get to hear a lot of doom and gloom, and these guys are presenting some things from a positive perspective. Standpoint specifically around how humans have the ability to, um, adapt, to change, to, um, be innovative in the face of really big problems. And we've done that throughout history. So it's a real interesting book and maybe a different part of the conversation around human ability that you might not hear so much. Yeah, awesome. Um, a favorite quote. Oh, boy. Okay. So, when I was graduating college, uh, the gentleman who started Amway came to speak to us, uh, Rich DeVos, another Dutch guy from the Holland Grand Rapids area, and he said, at the end of his speech, you know, as you go out in the world, you can decide whether or not you're going to hang with pigeons. Or eagles, but whichever one you hang out with it's going to be the the kind of bird you are obviously eagles or Um, you know, they're they they've got good vantage points. Um pigeons are kind of on the ground pecking It has to do with you know, really the kind of person you want to be on the inside Um, you know what what you want to represent and uh, and again I mean, I just really believe that the folks you surround yourself with You know, it's the best predictor of who you're going to be Yeah, great way to end. Um, I agree completely. That's awesome. Tim, this has been lots of fun, man. Uh, thanks for being on Bourne Scrappy. Hey, my pleasure. Anytime. Cheers, mate.