Born Scrappy
The go-to podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders
Born Scrappy
S2E17: Strategies for success with Founder and CEO Garrett Tracey
In today's episode, I’m joined by Garrett Tracey.
Garrett is the former Chief Operating Officer and Chief Commercial Officer at Sims Brothers Recycling, and has recently gone on his own and started Recycling Revenue Partners.
Garrett is a super knowledgeable guy and there is heaps to be learned from his years of experience.
In today’s episode we talk about:
👉 The truth about tech vs relationships
👉 Making your money on the buy
👉 Why your buyers should visit
👉 Turning your inventory
👉 Being consistent
👉 And much more
Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.
The only marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies.
https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy/
WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?
25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...
I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.
I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).
I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.
Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.
COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN
Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I sit with Garrett Tracy. Garrett is the former Chief Operating Officer and Chief Commercial Officer at Sims Brothers Recycling and has recently gone on his own and started Recycling Revenue Partners. Garrett is a super knowledgeable guy and a great guy to sit and have a chat with. In today's episode, we talk about learning from your mistakes, going deeper than price, staying top of mind, commercial vs operations, confirmation bias, and so much more. So let's jump in with Garrett. But first, intro. Hey, Garrett, how are you? Uh, good morning, Steve. I'm doing great. Thanks for having me. Good morning. Good evening. It's all the same thing, right? Although for you, it's kind of both, right? What's the time where you are right now? We're about, uh, 3 a. m. 3 a. m. That's 3 a. m. And it's not just for Bourne Scrappy, right? This is the new, your new business now has you really, really hustling. It does. You know, I, uh, it, you know, when, when we talked about this opportunity, I said, absolutely, I'll, I'll, I'll make any time work, you know, for you, Stu, I, I, I'm, I'm honored that you asked me to come on and, uh, when we spoke last, you were in the United States. I didn't know that you went back home to New Zealand. So when I said, uh, I'll make any time work and three, you know, 3am was open. Uh, normally that would be a problem, but, um, you know, my 5am right now, so this, I just kind of, Rolled into this a little bit, you know, I did throw in the jacket to, you know, I didn't I didn't mind. Sorry Thank you. Cool Garrett. Um Yeah. I mean, we're going to delve into why you're, um, having three, four o'clock mornings at the moment or nights. I should say, um, love it because it's going to be, um, my game. We talking entrepreneurship, like, uh, uh, I can't wait to go there. We're going to go there. Let's, let's first kick off with a little bit about Garrett. So, um, how did you get into metal recycling? What have you been doing for 20 odd years? Whatever it is, tell us your story. Yeah, so, so I started in scrap recycling. So let me go back a bit further. I'm originally from Youngstown, Ohio, worn a classic rust belt. Um, most of my family in one way or another was in, uh, the steel business. I mean, you were either in, uh, Auto manufacturing, or you were in steel if you were in sort of Warren Youngstown, Ohio. So, the industry wasn't, um, unfamiliar to me, um, actually, my father, um, was a marketing rep for, for different services that were selling steel mills. So he was going to steel mill for, you know, 40 years as, you know, as I was being raised, but, um. It was definitely not what I wanted to get into at all. You know, I, I, I thought I enjoyed business, um, went to Miami University, uh, had a professor my senior year, my capstone course that just kind of said, um, you should stop by this booth, this company. I just think you'd be a good fit. You know, he worked with them from a consulting basis. So he kind of knew the organization and the kind of People they look for, and that company was the David J. Joseph company, headquartered out of Cincinnati, which was, you know, an hour away from, uh, my main campus. So, I knew nothing about it. Um, I stopped by, talked to HR, dropped off a resume, uh, when I graduated in 97, the, the job market for new grads was Remarkably good. I mean, it was, I was very, very, very fortunate to the point where companies will come into class as your senior year and drop off their business cards and said, you know, the first 10 people that call have a job and not just a job, but a good job. Um, I don't think that's true today, but, um. There was a lot of options, you know, for everybody, you know, not, not just, you know, business folks or Miami grads, but it was just kind of universal. Um, started talking to DJ and literally from conversation one, you know, the back of my mind, I said, this is, this is incredibly interesting. I mean, this is, I think I understood what they were telling me, but you know, it was kind of like, Hey, you're gonna, you're gonna run this business. Um, And the way you run it is going to determine your growth and your future in this whole industry. And, you know, I remember HR was telling me how, you know, when people got into the scrap business, you know, they stayed in it forever, for the most part. And that was all foreign to me. Uh, so, um, I ended up getting an offer and I, I, I got the offer the day I graduated. Um, From Miami and I was sitting on a couple other offers as were everybody. I wasn't a special person that I told myself that day. I said, you know, I have these offers. I'm going to get one from DJ. That's where I'm going. I got the day I graduated. My parents were in town. I remember that the call, um, almost like it was yesterday. Um, you know, ended up accepting a couple days later because I didn't want to sound too anxious. I wanted to make sure I had the right package. And, and that was it. So I became a Ferris trader. For DJ, which I thought was neat. I didn't realize, you know, at the time sort of how well positioned in the market they were and sort of their leverage, their depth of knowledge, you know, the opportunities that would come with it, you know, the people I'd be working with. Um, I was 21 years old. I just thought this is, this is a neat job. So that was the launching pad or the starting point for, um, for everything I've done in scrap for the last 20. Six years. Okay. So fast forward, what is that? Like we know you got started there and then, and then you spent at, did you stay at DJ? I spent probably five or six years at DJ between trading and logistics. Um, at that time they wanted to really, uh, market the logistic services, you know, Move them out of house and sell them to the industry versus just a support function for their internal scrap yards and trading offices. And I thought that was a really neat opportunity. So spent a couple, spent five years at DJ, um, got the opportunity to work for TMS International, they had some contracts in Southwest Ohio and, um, started talking to me about, you know, opening an office down there, a trading office to support what at that time was AK Steel and the opportunity was great. So I started working with, um, TMS International. I did that for, you know, roughly about another five years. And, um, one of my customers at that time was a company called Sims Brothers Recycling, which was a large privately held family business scrap company in central Ohio. And I was doing a lot of business with them on a trading, um, brokerage Function and they need some help on both operations and the commercial side of the business So they engaged me, you know over six seven eight months. I've talked about some opportunities and it was um You know, I I was sort of mentored very early in my career that you know The diversity of your experiences in this industry was going to help sort of dictate your path and You There was a lot of silos of business. Um, you know, in the States, you kind of got, kind of got grouped in a commercial where you got a group in operations, um, and you could do different functions within those silos, but they didn't really, they didn't mix very often. And I didn't understand that really from the beginning. I didn't, cause I started to understand the business a little bit and I realized, you know, that they were just so, so interlinked. I mean, It's one thing to understand commercial and trading and procurement and sales and operations is a different animal, but. Everyone touches the other side. Um, you know, so when I had the opportunity to sort of really dive into operations, even different support functions within the scrap company industry, you know, finance and. In HR, I knew that my opportunities were more broad. At Sims brothers recycling, and so it was an opportunity that I just couldn't I couldn't pass up. So moved from Cincinnati, Ohio to Columbus, Ohio. And, uh, that was about seven, 16, 17 years ago. Um, did various, um, roles for Sims brothers recycling. Most recently I was chief commercial officer and chief operating officer. So. You know, sort of both silos reported up to report up to me and I, um, did you fight with yourself a lot? You know what? I did. I did. Because it's, uh, it's funny you say that because that, that's a struggle everywhere. You know, operations has their initiatives and commercial has their initiatives. And in seeing both sides, in understanding both sides, in managing both sides, it was, it was eye opening. It was eye opening for me because, uh, I would push. Certain things commercially that I didn't understand the operational, um, consequences until I had both roles. And, you know, I probably made bad decisions early in my career because of that. Um, I, I still have great relationships at, at DJ where I started and, you know, we get together at different levels, you know, every so often. And that's actually something that we talk, we talk about a lot. You know, I said, And that model has changed a little bit for them, you know, but I kind of said, you know, You and the industry are missing a huge opportunity. Um, Sort of siloing your key people in these sides because they're so intertwined. Um, and You know, I've beat that drum for about a decade to anybody who would listen whether it be a trading company a scrap company, um Anybody involved in recycling that that The business is too interlinked not to understand what the other side's doing. And for, for the right people, um, you know, get them cross trained, you know, because they're going to be, I'm such a better trader and commercial person because I understand operations and I'm such a better operations person because I understand commercial and. Those opportunities are hard to find. Um, how can you even, how can you even run a company or one of these companies or even a division, if you don't get both sides, like it is so difficult. It was the greatest blessing I ever had was starting off in the yard for seven or eight years, right. Just was where I landed, right. It just happened to be. And then I found my niche on the trading side, but. There's no way I could have ended up running such a large company like I did, if I didn't have that knowledge. I mean, I remember in Durban, South Africa, we had an operations manager named Donnie Van Niekek, and we had a commercial manager named Clayton Foster. And if they listening, hi guys. But basically, um, they were the best at what they did. They were also really good buddies. They were good friends, but did I see fights? Like this was when I was still coming through. I was probably like 24, 25 working in the yards, becoming a bit of a trader at the time. I watched these guys almost fist fight on a daily basis because they didn't know, or didn't actually care to know what the other party actually did on a day to day basis. They had their silo. And it was all about their silo and that included their people in it. So if the commercial division upset the operations people beneath them Like then they stood up for their team and they went at it. They were good friends But I tell you what they were fights and I think that happens everywhere in the world. I I think you're exactly right and The companies that are most successful today to your point are the ones that have understand those synergies and You know have understood that The people running those businesses need to have a very good understanding of the interaction between commercial and operations. Um, so I think the most successful companies, and, you know, there's, there's a lot of very well ran scrap companies, you know, small, medium and large in the United States. And the ones that I see, and I just know. That, you know, the processes, both operationally and commercially. Are very, very sound. It's because the person at the top understands that balance. Yeah, exactly. And if you are listening, and if you ask somebody who is maybe going through the journey and you're pushing to get in commercial or you're pushing to move to somewhere else. Don't rush it like the worst thing that could have happened to me. I think if, when I was 19, after six months or a year in the business, if I'd be moved into commercial, there's no way I could have run the company at a later stage, I wouldn't have been able to step up into that role. So get that experience, do the hard yards. And if it's seven or eight years, I promise you it'll pay off. Right, Garrett? I mean, you're a perfect example. I mean, you've got to do those hard yards. Yeah. So Stu, you're a hundred percent right. And when I started. You know, the mantra was, you know, scrap was bought, not sold. And there's, there's a lot to that, but that was the drum that was beat sort of all the time from a lot of folks. And I, as my career sort of went on, I developed this, my own philosophy, you'll right, wrong, or indifferent. You know, that the scrap is really it's bought, it's transported, it's processed, it's upgraded, it's positioned. It's sold and it's transported again. There's five really value added steps in that process. And I, 30 years ago, I believe scrap was bought and not sold. Today, the competitive nature of the market sort of doesn't allow you to extract all your value just on the buy side. There's other, there's six other steps that really have to be, um, you know, maximized. for a company to be successful. And a lot of those six other steps are operational steps. So thus, I mean, you know, one plus one equals two, you have to run that side of it very well, too, for the organization to be successful. You know, take DJ, for example, and you know, like I said, I was very lucky to learn the commercial side of the business and get my start there. You know, I, I fell into it backwards and, but, but they're very good at what they do. Um, and there's a lot of best practices there that will probably stay true forever. But I've seen even a shift after they were bought by Nucor that they are starting to move their commercial people and operations and their operation folks in the commercial. Um, it's, it's a little bit more of a standard. Practice that again. I don't I'm not there. So I don't know how deep it is, but my connections and contacts, I see them sort of crossing over. That's healthy for the company. That's healthy for the employee, especially if they're in key employee. Um, it keeps them engaged. Um, it keeps them learning. It keeps them wanting to do more. Um, so the, the value is, is endless and the companies I see being successful are, you know, are doing both of those things. So, Garrett, you, you spent a lot of time on the commercial side, obviously, as we've just discussed. Can you think of a. The trade that you've had that really taught you something that will last forever So it's usually something that went really badly Or an issue that you had to deal with and there were huge significant learnings from that. Can you talk us through something like that? Wow, so I consider myself a commercial Trader, um, at heart. That's where I started in business. Um, that's why I love doing, um, you know, that is something that just probably who I am fits the best into, um, it, you know, our industry is, is nothing but experiences. Um, and. I'm kind of circling around your answer a little bit because there, there, there's a little shiny anything here? Yeah, there, there's a little bit of, of a point here. You know, when I started I would always ask, you know, why are you in this 30 years later, 40 years later, 50 years later? And everybody would say, you know, scraps in your blood. And, but the most common answer was, you know, every day is different that I just. I didn't understand that 20, 70 years ago, but you're, you're buying commodity and you're selling commodity on the commercial side. I'm like, is there really that many renditions of, of that? Like, is that really possible? And every trade you take a piece of experience out of, um, and. For me, it's an aggregate of all those trades, um, both good and bad, because you're always going to have, you're always going to have bad ones. And the only, you know, I remember making a bad one in my, in my early days, and I thought I was going to be, you know, just absolutely, uh, hammered by upper management. And it was literally the opposite. It was what happened? Why'd you do it? And what are we gonna learn from it? And it, I mean, that was, that was unbelievable. I mean, like, it wasn't, hey, you know, you lost 32, 000 by pushing some paper the wrong way, or you lost, you know, 300, by doing this. It was, we know that's going to happen. It is inevitable that, that trades will go south for different reasons. Why did this one go south? Well, you know, I bought it before I sold it, or I sold it before I bought it. The market moved unpredictably. I was in this position. Did you have a contract? No, but had an agreement. You know, my word was my sort of contract. I wasn't comfortable backing out. Okay. Those are all, those are all great things. I think that one became a case study, you know, for sort of young traders going forward are part of the case study. But every trade you better take something out of, you know, good, bad or indifferent because, um, that's all this business is. I mean, there's no, everybody knows there's no textbooks, there's no school to go to. Um, so, uh, you know, it's not one, it's, it's all of them. It really is all of them. So it, that sounds like an answer that's not an answer, but, you know. If you stop learning in this business, then you're going to stop growing. And that education can be, you know, formal education. It could be informal. It could be, but most of it is doing the actual work and there's no substitute for that. And that's, it's interesting. Cause that's an operations and commercial it's without actually getting your hands dirty and running operations. If, if you're talking logistics, go and run a fleet. Go and look at the costs, go and analyze the costs of running a fleet. You will be much better by doing that. Commercially do some trades, lose some money. You will get better from that experience. Like that's everything we do in this industry. We get better through the experiences. Whether they're good experiences or bad experiences. And I think what your management did just showed they had a lot of experience, right? They knew they were expecting it. You know, you weren't going to get a slap on the wrist. You were just actually shown at that time. You were literally shown that, Oh, wait, this might be normal. It's not acceptable, but it's expected, right? I've got to do better. I've got to make sure I learn from this. Um, the biggest mistake you can make. is not learning from a mistake. You're 100 percent right. You're 100 percent right. If that trade continued to happen, then that would be my fault because I didn't learn anything. I don't, anybody that's worked for me over my whole career, I always tell them mistakes should be made all the time, but we can't be having the same conversation continually because that tells me you didn't learn anything from that mistake. I make mistakes all the time. Um, and so that's not the bar. The bar is, are they being repeated? Um, and sometimes, you know, I look at myself, you know, especially if somebody, if I'm managing somebody, did I give that person the proper communication, the proper support to not make that mistake again? You know, was I clear with the direction or my guidance? Sometimes I look back and I say, well, no, I wasn't, you know, so this happened again, probably because of my lack of management. So that's my mistake. And so I have to sort of, you know, learn from your own mistake. You're making, learn from the mistake. No matter what level that mistake is made, when you make a mistake, uh, you need to learn from it. Sticking to the commercial side, but flipping it around a little bit, you ran Sims Brothers for quite a while. You obviously had a focus of bringing the metal in. You need to buy metal to sell it. Buying is massively important for all metal recycling companies. We've got a lot of competition out there, which is the other people we're speaking to, right? All metal recyclers have got opposition. Um, how did you find an edge at Sims Brothers or anywhere else you've been to, to bring the material in? Was it marketing? Was it pricing? What did you do? Build a brand? I don't know what it might be. What did you, how did you use to focus on bringing the metal in? Yeah. So that's, that's a, that's a great question. Pricing is when the accounts are large and for lack of better word, you know, sexy, you know, the big accounts that are producing a lot of material that are well known in the industry. You know, when I came to the Sims Brothers recycling, I knew about accounts that they had in 97, 98, 99 because of the trader wire, um, of information bouncing back and forth between the traders. At different organizations, you know, Sims is doing this with this account and, you know, fast forward 25, 25 years later, those counts are still there. Um, you almost have to take price off the table because everybody is going to have a very similar option on pricing. Manufacturers, for the most part, they want to, they want to manufacture what they're good at manufacturing. They don't want to worry about that in their world waste stream that's coming out of the back of the plant. And obviously, we all know it's it's not waste, but I've heard that that term sort of batted around quite a few times. I understand. So what's the value proposition? It's it starts with service. Some of the larger accounts are. Heavily service related as far as just the amount of effort that needs to go into collecting the recyclables, the scrap metals, plastics, papers, glass, Ferris, non Ferris. At the facilities and removing them, we were very successful. At Sims brothers with taking the knowledge that we had about recycling and transplanting it. Physically into the plant. And so how do you do that? You take one of your employees that understands recycling and you put them on the floor at the, at the manufacturer. Now, all of a sudden, there's representative on the floor that by design knows more about those recyclables than probably every person on the floor combined. That's just because that's nature of the business. They're making cars or they're making appliances or widgets, and they're not worried about what's coming off the back end of the stamper, but we are and here's how we maximize your revenues. Here's how you sort. Here's how you transport and those value propositions really resonate with the manufacturers. They love information. They love timely information. Um, I think that's pretty universal today, um, across manufacturers or, or across scrap recycling companies. Um, they're all come to the table with. With good reporting, um, there's, there's, you know, sort of a sustainability reporting that is. Being developed sort of even today of how they want to see that data, you know, 0 to landfill or landfill diversions. They want to see data a little bit different way. The large companies have done pretty good. And understanding what that vendor needs and. And tailoring what they can do for that company. So, that's that's a piece of it. Yeah, if you're relying on price. There's going to be somebody that comes in that trumps you at some point. So, so go deeper than price and the deeper you go into that economy, the more things you handle for that manufacturer or vendor, the more sticky that relationship will be. I was about to say sticky factor. Exactly right. Yeah. I always used to tell my account executives, um, two things. One was that it's a partnership. So if you treat them as a partner, not a customer, you look at them very, very differently, right? So you're trying to maximize their profitability or maximize their sorting, whatever it might be. You're trying to help them do that by helping them. You're adding value as a partner. You will have a long fruitful relationship the second they don't see you as a partner and they see you as a parasite and somebody who is just there to make a buck, then it's about price. And if you're not giving the best price, you're gone tomorrow. The other thing I used to say was for most of these customers of ours, we're a logistics company. Yeah, they don't, I don't want to say they don't care about what you do. Of course they have to care about what you do. And that's why we built a customer portal so that our portals could go onto our site and actually see all their own volumes, et cetera. But really what they want is that when their bin is full. They want it collected and gone. They have run a clean yard most of the time, and they want to know that when that metal bin is full or they've got a waste bin on the side, whatever it might be, they want to know when they call for it, it gets collected. They don't care that you upgraded or you paid this for that. They are. building cars. They are whatever they're manufacturing, they're engineering, whatever they don't actually, they're not recyclers. So if you can treat them as a partner and your main job is a logistics company for them, you can build a fruitful relationship with them. And that's how we, we used to really treat them. Yeah, you're, you're exactly right. You know, the, there's a lot of environmental touch points. With, with scrap, um, I, we had a customer that, um, was storing material outside and, you know, they were, they, they were sort of told that, uh, they have to find an enclosed place to store the material because of the rainwater. Exactly. Um, and their solution was, you know, essentially a open air building with a roof. Well, when those things come up and they're not, it's not inexpensive, the budgets aren't available. Um, and we, we heard this conversation sort of on a whim and the manufacturer didn't know how they were going to sort of get that across the finish line. And we said, that's scrap related. That's recycling related. Yeah. Yeah. So, so we will build the building for you. We'll be open book with the costs. And in return, you know, this is what the scrap contract needs to look like, you know, whether we either extend it, you know, or remove a dollar to a ton until it's paid back and the ownership then flips to the manufacturer. But there's a lot of solutions. You would do that for us? Well, that's part of our, you know, scope of services that we sort of provide. And by the way, if you were brought in this conversation earlier, we could have had this conversation six months earlier and probably be done with the building. Um, you know, staying in front of that customer and when the word recycling or scrap or logistics, when those questions come up, you need to be sort of on top of the mind and you'll get that call. And even if your company can't do it and you're the recycler of choice. Partner with somebody that you trust they can and bring that service to the, to the, you know, to the table. The more that you offer that customer, the more stickier the relationship is going to be. But with the account executives, right? This is why I used to always explain. You have to visit the yards. You have to be in front of them. It's not just the general material that's getting loaded into a bin that you're taking away on a daily basis. There's other projects, they're demolishing a building or, you know, whatever it might be exactly what you say. Now they've got storage issues. Like if you're not in the conversation, you're not a partner. Like it's really that simple. You know, there's um, there's a lot of very strong recycling companies in the Midwest, in the Ohio Valley, that, that Sims Brothers has competed against. And, um, the good ones, you know, they have, they have boots on the ground. They may not have. physically employees at the plants, but they, they have representatives and account representatives that are making very regular sort of touches into the plant. I've always looked at the plant as any manufacturer, any facility as an economy. And the reality is, at least my, my viewpoint is that you don't necessarily have to make money on everything you do. But the economy, you know, better make money. Um, and there's some last leaders that, that happen within that economy. But the deeper you go, the more likely you're gonna get that phone call for the opportunity where you can make a nice return. But if you're not there doing the other things, it doesn't matter. So there are pieces of business that, that I've had over years that I know that this piece in this economy is a lost leader. I'm fine with that. As long as I understand how that relates to the whole piece of business. Um, those are conversations I share with, with other, you know, scrap recycling, scrap yard owners. And I think that's a pretty universal thought. You know, I, I think it has to be because it's just like, if you're bidding 19 grades, you may not be the best on six of them, but you know, the other 13 better make up for the six. Yeah, absolutely. You love to educate yourself, similar to me. We just, you know, we soak up information wherever possible. I know how much you love to study and, um, just kind of lifelong learning. What sort of KPIs do you monitor or key metrics do you focus on in your business? Yeah, that's a great question because it data is becoming more prevalent in, in everybody's life and it's, is it entered recycling and scrap and, um, it's, it's very important, you know, so there's KPIs that we measure purchase versus sale price broke reach margin, uh, throughput. But that's a little bit more on the commercial side, transportation metrics, you know, 1 of the issues is, you know, we all have biases. Whether we know it or not. And you know, one of the biases that is, is really hard to identify is, is confirmation bias. You know, which is just basically, you know, I have an opinion about how something should be, and so then I'm gonna seek out the data that confirms that my opinion is right. And so it's a, it's a nuance and it's tough to identify, you know? But if I. If I say, hey, listen, if we shorten the stroke in our sheer. And that's going to produce a more dense package, which is going to allow us to ship more material in a rail car or in a truck, which is going to lower our cost. And this is going to be the result. If that's my initiative, I have to be careful that I just don't seek out the data that supports that. So I, I may be right, but what if. We just had a slug of very dense material that ran through this year. And we had a demo project that came in that was just very, very dense, heavy beams. Maybe that was the result of a heavier shipment going out and not necessarily shorting the stroke on this year. You know, it's data, you know, I had a professor that basically said, you know, there's lies and there's damn lies. And he was quoting somebody else. I don't know who it was. Lies, Dan Lies. And then there was, you know, data and his whole, his only point was. You need to be careful that you're really digging into the data to make sure that you understand anywhere it comes from, be that it's accurate and see what are you trying to prove? Because the confirmation bias is, is very real and very easy to, um, you know, kind of get to an end and say, aha, I was right. See, this report says that. Maybe, maybe not. Yeah, but why? So do you, rely on any data? I, um, so in my old world, I did, and I, I, I wanted very basic information. I wanted to understand on the purchase side what the average cost of grades were on a more, um, on a more micro level. I wanted to understand the economies of each account. This count has two grades. This count has 10 grades and together they are producing this for the bottom line. Um, you know, you can get really deep into the woods with data and, you know, those are sort of very high level metrics that I always would keep an eye on, on a weekly and monthly basis. So what about. When you manage your team, right? And you have, you've got quite a big team. Obviously we'll try and do yard with you the other day. You, you must have some absolute, um, gems in there that you don't want to lose. How have you managed over time? You know, the idea of people leaving and also how have you prepared for that? And, and kind of focused on key person risk. Yeah, that is. I think that is an issue that almost the whole industry has, you know, there's not a, there's not a breeding ground for scrap experts, recycling experts, you know, you get in this industry, one of, you know, many different ways, but, you know, there's not necessarily a pipeline. And that's actually one of the reasons why I decided to do the business that I'm doing now. But key person. sort of risk. If a company identifies that key person, um, they need to communicate with them and, and at a very low level and a very high level to understand what that person wants and what drives them and what, what they value and what you think they value and what they actually value may be two different things. If you don't have the conversation, You know, you'll never know and sometimes it's not as complicated as, you know, the manager or the owners, you know, feel may think it is. Um, so. There's very basic things like, you have to treat them with respect. Give me opportunities, but understanding what they value about what they do is. Very important, because as those opportunities come up, if they value building relationships. Then give them more opportunities to build relationships. And if they value money, give them more opportunities to, to make more money. And you can just, that conversation can keep going on and on and on, but there's always, you know, a financial component, monetary component to that, that conversation. Um, and I think the most successful companies have done a really good job at sort incentivizing. Those key folks and. It's a financial function, so it could look a hundred different ways, but keeping those key folks engaged in their business and working towards sort of the common goal. And I mean, that could be, that could be equity, that could be phantom stock, that could be actual stock, that could be, you know, that could be bonuses, it could be short term bonuses, long term bonuses. But everybody's interested in that final financial component on some level. But again, engage that person because it may look very different From one person to another and if you don't have the conversations that you're not going to know So interesting man, how many times did I sit in management meetings? And the team would tell me so and so is um An absolute gun. This guy's brilliant. We need to look after him and the answer was always Or the question was always, you know, what do we need to do for him? and they would always say we need to pay him more money and And I would often respond but do you know if that's what he's looking for? Like maybe exactly like it can often be this guy is brilliant Calling me. We haven't managed management of proven increase call him into the year Into your office. This is now in the management in the in the yard level And the guy, you go, you got an increase. That's great. He's very happy. He appreciates it, but he resigns after a month because he wasn't doing what he wanted to do. He wasn't actually enjoying the specific work or he didn't see the growth opportunities because all you did was give him a little bit more money, but you didn't explain to him. That I'm going to put you on a, um, a process now to become a manager, or I'm going to put you on certain training or, and that's what he wanted. He wanted to build a future. And I love what your answer was because it's actually engage, communicate. So Garrett, how do you see technology playing a part in our industry, um, in the upcoming years? Yeah, that's a, that's a great question. And it's probably easiest to talk about that, you know, Sort of splitting the two silos between, you know, commercial and operations, you know, operationally, there's a lot of technology that is coming, um, to the sorting of metals and scrap that I think is, is very interesting, you know, both on the ferrous and the non ferrous side and in the non metallic side. Um, those investments started out being very expensive and there's very There's a very small piece of the industry that can afford them. Um, from what I can see, those technologies are, are becoming more obtainable for the average scrap company. Now, whether that's, you know, uh, AI sorting, whether that's, um, you know, the, the, the use of, uh, cameras, x rays, gamma rays, you know, those are all technologies that have. Have been used in the past, and I think they're being married a little bit now with with AI and. There's, there's quite a few companies, you know, sort terror technologies is a company, Indiana. That is working on that separation of aluminum, especially from the auto manufacturers. It's a very interesting technology that I think. They have proven, and I think there's, there's quite a few other things on the separation of materials, especially on the nonfair side. Um, you know, commercially, when I started in this business, I didn't know if there was a future for, for trading because I thought, why isn't a computer going to do this, you know, and fast forward, you know, there's probably a, A case be made that there's a more of a place for the, the person. And, you know, the actual trader, and there was before, because I think the market is much less transparent today. I do wonder when the larger players will try to automate. On the fair side, the procurement. Procedures domestically. For their mills. There's ways of doing that. I wouldn't be surprised if they're not working on that behind the scenes today, but, you know, essentially a technology based system. In which they procure all their scrap metals for the mills that wouldn't be great for for somebody like me, it would probably create some different opportunities, but I would not be surprised if that was technology that came sort of to the forefront. Um, you know, I know what you're doing with with with buddy is something that is is. technology based solution that I think is, you know, we didn't talk about this, but, you know, I think is incredible. Um, it takes what sellers in the States need domestically. You know, the export business, international export business is a little bit of a, a mystery to a lot of companies. The large companies understand it, but once you get outside that sort of spectrum. It's it's very much a mystery and there's business there to be had for both the midsize and small size scrap companies and for them to understand those export markets, but there was never, you know, there was never a device that allowed them to get there sort of cost effectively and comfortably, you know, so that that buddy technology piece. Um, is sort of the first mover in that space and that's, that's technology based. Um, there's a lot of opportunities like that, both commercially and operationally. We're recycling is a little bit of a slow mover, slow adopter. So it's just starting to happen, but I honestly think the next five and 10 years, the business will look very different than it does today, both commercially and operationally. Totally agree. Yeah. Absolutely. It has to, just the way, the way the world is moving at the moment, recycling won't be left behind. We'll be, we'll be on the train. Um, Garrett, who would you like to see on Bourne Scrappy next? Oh, that's a great question. You know, there's two people that come. immediately to mind for probably, for probably different reasons. We talked earlier that, you know, I love to learn, learn in a lot of different ways. And one of the things that's worked best for me is, you know, is talking to business owners just on a business owner sort of level. There's quite a few people that I engage on a weekly and monthly basis that I don't do any business with. But their knowledge base is, is, is beyond incredible. And, you know, the two people that come to mind for very different reasons, Gary Clayman and Niles Iron and Metal. Um, I met him literally 26 years ago when I started the business and he's an incredible operator and. An absolute bulldog in everything he does and a very interesting person. I met him on my last travels. Very interesting guy. Great guy. Do you agree? Yeah. Totally agree. Your explanation is on point. Yeah. It's fantastic to talk to on every level. And again, I really don't do any business with him, but he's a wealth of knowledge. The other person that, you know, falls in that category that, you know, Every time I call this person for a small thing, it balloons into a half hour, 45 minute conversation about many things, mostly about recycling, but some not. And I always leave these conversations thinking to myself, wow, that was, that was a great 45 minutes spent. Um, and that's Adam Mervis, um, from Mervis Industries. Um, you know, incredibly intelligent, bright, operationally and commercially savvy person that, um, really understands how to. You know, monetize, commercialize, but what he does very different people, but incredible resources for everybody. I like to get both ends of the spectrum. So, uh, yeah, that'll be cool. I'll speak to, I'll speak to them both soon. We're going to end up with some quick fire questions. Oh boy. Favorite TV series or movie or movie. Um, the progression probably went, um, Sopranos. To breaking bad breaking bad is my number one of all time And I would throw ozarks as far as a series tv show into that into that mix. I love sort of strong character based um Shows and obviously all three of those are yeah I've got to ozark like season three or something. I just so good time. It was really good. I really enjoyed it Um favorite place to visit You You know, I've, I've been fortunate enough to, to travel a lot. I've seen a lot of Europe. It's stunning. It's beautiful. I went to Ireland last year. I was, I was blown away. But, you know, at my heart, I'm a, um, I'm a water beach person. Uh, Key West in the United States is, um, Incredible. You know, you, you feel like you've been transported. I love to fish. There's no better fishing in the world than in Key West. So if I had one place to go for the rest of my life, it'd be Key West. You might need to visit New Zealand. We're quite into fishing here. Listen, I, uh, I would love to get that trip on the schedule and, uh, my wife would sign off on that in a second. I'm sure. She would love, love to travel there. We'll make it happen. Yeah. Favorite book. My wife and my sister in law, I think, go through a book a day on vacation. You know, I'm a I'm a nonfiction reader. Um, you know, I read business books. I, um, have a hard time sort of slowing down to the point where I can really sort of sit down and enjoy a book. Um, you know, all the Jim Collins business book, you know, good to great, you know, great by design, you know, I, I take something away from all those, you know, somebody just gave me, just sent me one literally two days ago. And what was it? It was, um, Zook the founder's mentality, which I just started. Yeah. The author was Zook. The Founders mentality, which I just started getting into, which was, which was very, very interesting. I look forward to sort of, when I have a little more time, sort of picking that back up and getting through that. Yeah. I love podcasts too. That's kind of my, my supplement to the books. Um, yeah, I travel a lot in the car, so that's a sort of nice way to sort of, you know, burn the time when I'm, uh, you know, behind the windshield. Yeah, with them. Let me know how that book goes. I'll be interested in reading it as well. Yeah. And have you got a favorite quote? Oh, wow. So this one is super simple and I don't know where it comes from, but it was a classmate. I've been thinking about sort of, you know, growing a business and starting a business, you know, For a long time, and when I got out of school this last time, about 4 years ago, there was many, many business owners that I was able to sort of pull from their experiences and they all were saying, you know, if not now, when and. That was just kind of like a short response to basically all the excuses that I had for, you know, for anything. Exactly. Exactly. And they all got sort of past that because there was, there's 10 reasons not to do anything. And in your mind, you can sort of say that, um, there's 10 reasons not to do anything. And if you really want to do it, then do it. That first step is literally the hardest step. And looking back and I've told all of them this, you know, over the last 60 days, they were completely right. I mean, they were, the first step is, is 90 percent of the battle. You know, I I'll be up to four or five, 6 00 AM for months straight. That's the easy part. I mean, that's the decision. Yeah. The decision to make that first step, to take that first step is all it takes. Yeah. You know, I'm looking at the screen, I have a quote behind me, which basically, I won't read it because it's pretty long. It's basically, you know, what makes a trader? And that was given to me. You know, on my first week of the job when I was a trader for, for, for DJ. And I've actually taken that quote to every job that I've had, because it's, it's, it's very simple about basically relying on fundamentals, experience, mathematics, and not convincing yourself that it's the trade is something other than what it is and sort of having confidence in it. I'll send this to you, you know, separately. I was about to ask. Yeah. Send me a screenshot. I'd love to see it. It's a carrot. Very interesting Yeah, I really want to see it Garrett. Um, this has been lots of fun. We could speak, I mean, in Ohio, I had to leave your place in Columbus because I had to get to, um, Cleveland. We could have just sat for days chatting away. So I have to end it. Um, it's been lots of fun. We'll speak again very soon. We'll be seeing each other at Esri. Absolutely. Thank you so much for being on the show, Garrett. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Stu. Awesome, man. Cheers. Take care. Cheers.
