S2E16: Charting your own course with Compass Metal Trading's Pablo Colucci

In today's episode, I’m joined by Pablo Colucci.

Pablo is the Founder and Managing Director of US-based brokerage firm Compass Metal Trading.

Pablo started out young, scrappy and hungry. He said "yes" to all the opportunities that came his way. And he transitioned from ops to trading, from employment to ownership.

His story inspired me, and I think you might find that too.

In today’s episode we talk about:

👉 The truth about tech vs relationships
👉 Making your money on the buy
👉 Why your buyers should visit
👉 Turning your inventory
👉 Being consistent
👉 And much more

Born Scrappy. Brought to you by Buddy.
The only marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies.

https://www.tradebuddy.io/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/tradewithbuddy/

WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/born-scrappy/

Transcript

Stu Kagan: 0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by Pablo Colucci. Pablo is the Managing Director at Compass Trading. He started young, scrappy and hungry, like a few of us. He also said yes to all the opportunities that came his way. And he transitioned this one period, he opts to trading and another period from employment to ownership. In today's episode, we talk about the truth about tech versus relationships, making your money on the buy side, why your buyers should visit, turning your inventory, being consistent, and so much more. So let's jump straight into the episode with Pablo, but first intro.

1:11

Hey, Pablo, how are you? Good, man. How are you? Yeah, man. I'm, uh, I'm really good. I'm just excited to, to have this conversation. We had a really good chat the other day. Where were we? Um, Atlanta. Uh, we had breakfast. Breakfast in Atlanta. I think, I think breakfast in Atlanta could have become um, well, lunch and dinner as well. So, um, at the time we said, well, let's take it onto the show and, uh, Have the conversation and record it. So good to have you. What's, what's the rule with swearing on here? Cause I think there are no rules. It's kind of like fight club. Oh wait, there are, there is a rule about fight club. We don't talk about fight club. That's the difference we can't talk about born scrappy. We'll try to keep the swearing to a minimum. Yeah. Just certain words maybe leave out, but feel free to express yourself, man. We can always post edit out. If you say something absolutely ridiculous. Well, thanks for having me. Yeah, man. Awesome to have you. So Pablo, give us all a background of how you landed in metal recycling in the scrap metal game. Love your shirt, by the way, we spoke about it just before we came on super retro, super awesome. I know you sending me some old school merch and I've got the new stuff, love it, but that's really cool. So how did you get into, um, how did you get into this industry, mate? Yeah. So, so I've got a, uh, I think unique story compared to a lot of people in the industry. A lot of people, obviously there's family connections. Uh, for me, I, I did a, uh, a degree in commerce, majoring in marketing, uh, in Canada, and basically when I finished school, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had no idea. I was, I'm the youngest of four kids. All of my siblings were in Canada. Some, some form of business. Um, you know, my brother's a banker, my sister and one sister works in pharmaceuticals, my other sister's commercial, you know, packaged goods. Uh, I always kind of thought I'd work for some big corporate company, something like that. Uh, I did my first interview out of school and I thought, I thought, Oh, this will be easy, I'll nail this. And I did terrible. Um, so my, my sister, Sophia, who's just older than me, uh, was incredibly smart. She said, I'm going to teach you how to do interviews. And you're just going to go and do every interview and figure out what you want to do. So I literally just started like taking interviews. I didn't even know what I was interviewing for. Like, like, you know, like I would just do it. I would research the company a little bit, but I, you know, I was just doing it to practice. Um, and so I interviewed with a recruiter and I didn't really even know what scrap metal was to be, to be quite honest, but, you know, it went really well at that time. They didn't talk. I think they did it on purpose, the company I worked for. They didn't want to talk about exactly what it was because. I think they were afraid they would scare people off. So I did this interview with the interview with the recruiter went really well. They said, uh, we want you, they want you to come in and do an interview with the team. Um, so I ended up interviewing in the company's combined metal industries in the Toronto area. I ended up doing probably 12 hours of interviews with them. Uh, I just really loved them, loved the whole concept of like, you learn something from the ground up instead of just coming in and doing it. You know, you're, you're, you're selling this, this is sales, whatever. Um, I just, I thought it was really neat. Again, I didn't know anything about it, but I, but I really liked the people. And I thought at 23 years old, I'll give this a go if, uh, if I like it, right. And if I don't, I'm 23 and I can go do something else. They hire a lot of young people and try them out. It's kind of a, I would say it's a little bit sink or swim. Uh, I started in operations. I was hired with two other people. And I swam and I made it and, uh, and it really just clicked for me. I really, I loved it from day one. Uh, I was in operations for a year, which is not like my forte by any means, but yeah, it just, it just kind of clicked for me. So there's a few places I want to go into there. One is all I can picture with all these interviews you're doing is that scene from stepbrothers when they're forced to go in and interview for jobs. And I think Will Ferrell's sitting behind him. Um, and they're just like the Pam, Pam, is that Pam or Pam? Anyway, that's kind of what I was thinking. Um, but just explain the 12 hours of interviews. Yeah. Okay. So it was weird to even call them interviews. They were just conversations. It could have been a podcast probably in our modern era because like I went in and at that time, um, you know, I met with, with the president CEO, Gary Kaplan, and we literally just had a conversation about life, our views on things, values, like, I was just like, like, I left the first, it was probably four hours. Of just me and him and I was like, man, I, I love this guy. Like, you know, and like it was really just very unique. It was a unique experience, um, to the point where at the very end I was kind of deciding between two jobs. And I think he took it. He was, he was a little upset with me. I, if I say he was a little upset, he's brought it up like a hundred times that I didn't want, I didn't want to jump right in. Um, but yeah, I mean, it was, it was really not, not your standard interview. They, they did do one interview that was pretty intense with the whole trading team, where it was like a circle. It was just me. And so that was, that was a little bit weird. Throwing things at you. I was going to say they were throwing things at you. How does he cope under pressure? But, but I think it was honestly, it was just a really cool process. And, uh, and, and I just, I just really liked the people and I thought, you know, like, I mean, that's, that's a good place to start, you know, Gary's great. I mean, I could speak for days. With Gary. He's awesome. He's also from Durban where I spent a lot of my time, um, especially in scrap industry, so we know each other really well. Um, I can 100 percent see this conversation with you and him becoming a four hour conversation, and he is a guy you can sit and chat to, and he's super switched on brilliant guy. So yeah, I love all the time I ever speak to him, but I can't imagine that's normal because it's a part of the process is to hire a lot of juniors. And throw them in the deep end and they sink or swim, right? You swim I can only imagine they probably have a five percent hit rate ten percent who knows i'm sure there's data on it but um, it's You kind of four hour meetings with every single junior. Why was it that you were stuck in with four hours with him? Uh, I mean, I think we just really hit it off and I would tell you that Gary would probably argue that he'll pull it off. He'll have 40 hour meetings with everybody at that time. Yes. I don't know if today, but, but, but honestly, we, we just really, we just really buy it, we just really hit it off. And I don't know, like, it, it just, like, I can't really explain it. It just. It was just a really, really easy conversation. And I think because I was doing all these. Standard interviews where like you, like, I got like pretty good at, like, you know, tell me a time, those kinds of stories and, and, and this was like, not that, you know what I mean? I, I couldn't, like, I, I, I knew the formula, I'd figured it out. Sophia trained you, right? Right. But now Gary threw a curve ball and he actually wanted to get to know you. Yeah. And, and probably that was where you were best, which is why you're now a great trader. Thank you. But yeah, and then that's, and that's kind of where I think it just, it just works because I was also like, this is not a standard company industry. If this is the way they're treating things and it felt, it felt right. I mean, they're having, they have created this incredible family. Team culture, like it's, it's, it's amazing. You know, I speak to quite a bit and different parties there at different times for different reasons, but everybody seems to be super, super switched on this is combined middle industries. We still talking about, um, and obviously carry on with your story, I guess. So you had CMI and how you now at Compass. So, so the, uh, well, I guess the long and short is, is basically I was, uh, I worked at a CMI for eight years. I worked in operations for a year, went into industrial trading, uh, started growing a book of business, had some success there. CMI, uh, bought a yard near where I grew up, about an hour west of Toronto. They didn't have anyone to run it and they just said, Hey, you're from the area. Do you want to go and run the yard? Um, and it was just an incredible opportunity. I was 25 years old. So like I obviously said to Gary, I don't know what I'm doing, but if you help me. I'll do it. Um, so it was really cool because it was a great, great kind of yard to start with. It was, um, 7 acres, uh, with rail, which we, I got to help, like, go through that process of getting that all going. Uh, we had a, I had a small trading team, which was fun too, because it was. Two guys that were much older than me in their fifties and then one young guy. So it was very unique. I, it was, you know, a peddler yard or retail yard. I ran, I helped run that side of it. So it was amazing experience. I got to learn everything in the business, fast forward a few years. I ended up meeting my wife. Uh, on vacation in Vegas, where everyone meets their wives, uh, apparently, or maybe not. I don't know. Uh, and then, you know, we, we were traveling back and forth visiting each other. She's a teacher. She came in. Stayed for a summer. I tried really hard to convince her to move to Canada and I realized I can convince this girl to move to Canada, but she's going to be miserable. She's a very, uh, she's a homebody and her family's here in South Jersey and very important to her. So I ended up going to Gary and saying, um, listen, I'm going to move and, uh, I'll give you as much time as you need. If you'd like. Um, you know, like I'll give you like eight months, I'll help you. 12 years, 12 years, 12 years, as much as I want 12 years works. We'll train somebody by then. Exactly. So, so I helped them, I helped them, uh, hire somebody. And, you know, originally the plan was that I just told them I'm going to go. And I mean, two or three days later, he called me and he said, you know, why don't we just do something, um, in the U S like we're not there. Um, You know, like, let's just do something together. So he said, write me a business plan and and let's go and do something. So I wrote this business plan, which I've saved because it's hilarious and terrible. Uh, so to look back on it is kind of funny, but but the idea was to start with brokering because it's a good way to kind of. Learn who's around and figure out what's what. And then, uh, we, we kind of in that process figured out that, uh, brokering is a business in itself, which I think was, was a bit of a lesson for, for me and Gary, cause we thought, you know, we'll jump right into getting yards, but instead we went down the brokerage path. So how many years have you now been on the trading side? It is 11 years in July. So in these 11 years, you would have experienced quite a bit, um, by on the buying side, on the selling side, um, you've probably had some really tough markets to deal with as well. Can you think of a tough trade in particular that you've had to deal with? Um, and how that has kind of, those learnings you've taken forward in the way that you trade on a day to day basis. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot obviously we we like part of this industry is, you know, I don't need to tell you, you know, you go through a lot of tough times. I would say more than just 1 like little trade. I mean, we had a situation obviously when when covid hit it was. You know, very strange time and, and I had a pretty rough situation with, with one of the consumers that we deal with where we were underwater on a large position, you know, no one knows what to do. No, everyone, you know, that time was so scary. No one knew what was going on. And, you know, I had a couple companies that were in the same position, reach out to me. And say, you know, we want to try to, you know, get together, get a lawyer, see if we can take this and go like the force majeure kind of route. So it was kind of like a weird time. And I thought, you know what, one of the things I love about this business is like, you know, even when you're dealing with a massive mill, it's still people and there's relationships. So I said, I'm not going to go down that road. You know, like it was, you know, it was, it was scary. But if you really did the math at the time, it was a lot of money. We were underwater. You know, we went, I went to the mill. I said, you know, guys, this is the situation. Let's go through it. And let's, let's work together to figure it out. I'm not going to run away from this. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to deal with it and I'm going to make good on the deal. I did, but, you know, help me out because I still need to have a business. At the end of this thing. So it was, it was a very, very tough time. I know a lot of people went through similar situations and honestly was the best decision to go that down that road because I think it built so much credibility. For me and for our company with them, uh, because, you know, now they, you know, just kind of one of those, they know whatever happens, we're going to figure it out with you, um, you know, just, just, I think it showed them that I was a good trading partner. Um, my wife always says never let a good crisis go to waste. So I kind of love that. Um, and it's very much, you know, COVID created certain opportunities and, and you were in a tough bind. You could easily have. Had a fight in your hands, right? And I'm sure many people picked fights. But if you could get through that time and show your counterparty, who we're going to call partners, to show that partner that you're actually wanting to build this relationship and show that you will be good on your word or you will follow through on your commitments, it, it puts you in a huge, hugely positive position with them in the future. Right. And I think that's what you're saying. Yeah. And, and you took that opportunity and, you know, we all have to go through those tough times to really. Have, have learnings that we will never forget. Um, and COVID created a lot of that, me included, like everybody went through learnings there. We've had the crash in 2000, but there's, there's constantly learning going on in this industry. You know, a lot of people say, yeah, every day is different in this industry. And it really is. And that's what creates all these learnings. You've probably had to make some really tough decisions as well. I mean, we've just been speaking about when, um, you know, how you, how you moved around, but can you think of any tough decision that you've had to make? I mean, I, I guess I would, I would go back cause I, cause I, I made it sound simple earlier, but I think the decision to, you know, to move to a new country, um, to start, start a company, you know, even though I had the backing of a bigger company, you know, CMI being a parent company, but, you know, Really to start on my own. I mean, that was, that was a big decision. I mean, truthfully, the easier thing would be because as much as um, you know, this is such a niche business. I mean, if I, if I came here, you know, I could have, I could have gotten a job in the industry for sure. Like, I'm pretty, you know, pretty okay knowing that, but, but I decided, you know, to take this, this road and this path, which was very, very tough because You know, obviously I had no connections here, uh, and, and this business is so relationship based. So very, very tough decision because, you know, it was almost like the, here's the easier path. You know, my wife always jokes that it kind of worked out. Better, you know, like the decision, not just obviously to move because of personal reasons, but from a work point of view, it ended up being, you know, the best decision to go in and try to do this with support, like to start on my own. The Stoics say, um, the obstacle is the way. Right. So often you have no clue why you're being sent on a path and it seems like, Oh, I've got to move, but I found the person that I love. And, but now I've got to move. This is crazy. Why couldn't it just be where I'm from or why I got you, but it actually becomes the best thing you ever did. Right. Um, and, and I think so many people can relate. To your experience of having to move. We're a global industry and we get our training. We learn wherever we are, but everything changes in our lives, whether we are choosing to move, um, for reasons of finding a woman that we want to move for, or somebody like me wanting to spend more time with their family. So looking to move the family to the U S. Because I realized my business is now moving to the U S um, and, and other people who get, you know, transfers within businesses, right. And do I take this opportunity now to move to another country? But it's a huge, like those sorts of decisions are very relatable and very common in our industry. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause I was talking about it with a young trader the other day. I mean, I think for me, my parents are from Uruguay, from South America, and they, they immigrated. To the U S originally, and then ended up in Canada. And I think for me, it was easy in the way that it's, I think for other people, I always thought of it as easy. Like, you know, I remember at one point that with CMI, they were looking at a business in Texas and I was young in the company and said, Hey, would you move? And like, for me, it was a no brainer. Like I'm like, yeah, okay, I'll go, you know, like, like, It's a tough decision, but it's like, why wouldn't you take that? It's an adventure, right? Best decision. Like if you have the ability to move around before you have kids, like take that opportunity because when you move into a new area, you move to Texas, you learn so much about this industry. By being thrown into it. I mean, how many times did I tell young managers that I was sending them to an area where maybe we, and this is in South Africa, we were maybe opening up a new yard somewhere. Now I remember opening a new yard in North, the Northern region of South Africa, um, in Polokwane and the young manager named Marcel. Sending him in there and saying, this is, you will learn more in the next few months than you've, we will ever learn for the rest of your life because he has to find a yard, he has to now go and get customers, hire staff, like you're 23 years old and you're learning how to set up a business from scratch. Like those learnings are huge. So. You know, anybody that has the opportunity to move and is flexible, put your hand up and take those because it's going to pay off in leaps and bounds in the future. I know, but you said it perfect is that then it gets hard. I mean, and that's the reality too, is once you have, you know, a family, it's like, you know, if someone were to ask me today to move, I mean, this is where I know I've changed. I don't think that there's within reason an amount of money that someone could say, like, move here. I'm just like, Nope, I'm good with because it's because it's the right situation for my family. So it's funny the way that that changes. Uh, over time, but yeah, I mean, when you're young, like, how cool is it to go and just, just go in on an adventure? yeah, I think your, your stage in your life, Changes obviously, um, but take advantage of the stage you're in. Right. I mean, it's amazing. We've got kids now and can spend time with them and great business. But when you're 2023, like just go hard, man. I'm so glad I did. Yeah, me too. Me too. It's the, it's the best thing. And even like, you know, I look back and even like running the yard and doing Saturdays and stuff. I mean, first of all, when you're that age, I could go out until three and still make it to the yard at seven and figure it out, you know, because the Saturday we'd be open half the day, it would be busier and like, but even doing that kind of stuff, like it's so valuable to just, I don't know, like when you're young, just, Say yes, just do it, put your hand up. I was going to say exactly. Just put your hand up. Like somebody says, Oh, we need somebody on Saturday. Pick me like, Oh, we need somebody on the wear bridge. I'm your man, like just put your hand, learn it on the fly. Like you will learn things by just jumping into position when the company needs you be that person that can just fill that role. And that's what you were saying earlier. Like that's what Gary would be looking for as an example. When he's interviewing you, he's wanting to know that you're that go getter. Like that's what he's spending four hours with you. I'm using him as an example, but business owners are spending hours with these juniors showing them and speaking about the opportunity so that they do put up their hand because that's really what they're looking for. Of course. Yeah, a hundred percent. And knowing that, like, look, there's probably people that are, you know, know, know it more and can jump in quicker. But like you get a young person with enthusiasm. I don't know. It's hard to beat that. You can't, you can't train that. Right? I know. Yeah. See, we're getting old. We're talking about the young, those youngsters. I used to be that youngster, man. I used to be that. I remember that I was also like the youngest guy on the sports field, like always, then I became the oldest and it's just, it's just weird. Well, yeah, I know you're, I mean, you're going to, to the Israel national. And like, I remember being at those shows and being the youngest people. And now you look around and it's, it's, it's funny. Cause now it's like, we're in the middle of the pack now, but like, but it, but it's funny, you see some people that you're like, Ooh, he's, I mean, you don't I don't want to say kids, but I'm going to. It's wild, right? Yeah, exactly. So what were they all saying about you when you used to rock up as a youngster? You didn't realize they were going, Oh, the young kids, what do they know? Exactly. Exactly. Smoking a cigar. Exactly. So if you could, if you could give a tip to, you know, to the listeners that are listening How to trade better. And I'm talking specifically for the suppliers of the scrap metal. So the sellers, the actual metal recyclers, how, how can they optimize their trading strategy and that can be domestically or export, but how can they do things better? What have you seen over all your years? I mean, the, the, the thing that I think has changed, in the industry uh, like generation by generation, which I think is. Then a good thing is, especially with the cost of money now is turn your inventory. Don't get, don't get obsessed with looking at your scrap. If you're making money on it, move it because you know, I think sometimes people don't factor in that cost of money and what they could be doing with even, even if you're one of these old school companies that doesn't have a line of credit because you don't need it because you have all the money, even just the idea of you can take that money and then use it to do other things. To just have it sitting there is crazy and I think that that's one of the things that maybe it's changed and maybe people are realizing it more again as, uh, as the rates, interest rates have gone up everywhere. But I would say it's, it's, it's move inventory. Don't fall in love with the scrap and when you're making money, you know, take the deal, especially if you've got to deal with someone that you trust, you know, they're going to take care of you, pay on time. Like to, to, to, you know, wait another day or two, try to sweat everything out. I just think a lot of people like waste time, energy, and, and you're just taking unnecessary risks because the markets are so crazy that anyone like, you know, like, okay, we, you, you, you have experts in the industry. Right. But like, it gets nuts where it's like, no, what, tomorrow we wake up kind of what's copper going to be at who knows. Right. I just think that's, that's the best thing you can do is, you know, It's just, you're going to, I know it's the old adage in scrap is make your money on the buying of the sell. Don't fall in love with the scrap, get it in, process it, do what you got to do and move it out. That's, that's how you're going to make your money. But you only make your money on the buying if you sell it. So I agree with you completely. Like I've always been somebody who bought and sold in the same market. Um, and, and we did huge volumes and we made sure that, that, that it was done in that way. You know, having George Adams on here, he, he says the exact same. Jay Rabinovitz. They're all saying the same thing. I spent two weeks in the U S. Couple weeks ago and I couldn't believe what I saw like people are hoarders They hold their metal and they go, well, when the market gets to the right price, I'll sell. What is that right price? And how do you know? Like if the market starts climbing, everybody carries on waiting. I would think they go, it's going to get higher. It's going to get high, but then it crashes. So. How do you gamble like that? Well, I guess people do it's not in my blood. I like to sleep at night So yeah, I just don't I don't get that. Um, Yeah, I I experienced that probably for the first time in my travels a few weeks ago Yeah, there's there's a guy that I know not too far from here that uh, interesting guy and like he's He's he's said to me the first time I went there because i've never seen anything like this He has a warehouse just full of red metals You And he will wait, like, I'm not lying. He'll wait 10 years to sell it. And his whole thing is he'll wait for like, he'll, he might say copper's at 2. And he might say, I'll sell when it's at four. And his thing is I'll never be wrong. Cause obviously he's, cause he'll wait. He doesn't care. Yeah. So he's never right. Cause eventually he'll get there. Yeah. Now, like if someone did the math on it, you know, it sat down and said, okay. Yeah. And, and your space and your time and your handling, you Organizing it, not to mention the sleep that you might lose over it. Maybe he does it. I just, I just, I don't see it. I don't get it, but I mean, maybe, maybe we're just different people. I think that that mentality is changing though. I think that that is not like, like, Not the big yards, obviously, like the massive yards can't do that, but like, I think some of the smaller medium sized yards in the U S and Canada, um, that I could, those are the ones that can speak to, they have this idea of like the old school way. It's like, you want to, you want your scrap there? You want to see it. And I think the new generation recognizes that. Like, I mean, even from an operational point of view, how much easier is it to run the yard when you've got, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, just makes more sense. Yeah, a hundred percent. My favorite. We talking about future markets and people going, I'll set it when it's 4. I mean, I, the amount of times somebody has asked me what's the copper market going to do. Right. And I'm like, I have the same response every time. Like if I knew what the markets were going to do in the future, I wouldn't be here with you right now. I'd be on my yacht somewhere. Like you're asking me to predict the future. What are the copper markets going to do? You know, i'm going to sell it four dollars Well, what happens when it gets to four dollars and it's on a steep climb? Are you still going to sell it four dollars? Are you waiting for four dollars fifty? Right, right Or what if or what if what if it goes up but the spreads widen out like crazy because the mills don't you mean? Like does that still count if it goes up ten cents four dollars? Right. But then the mills, the copper mills are saying, no, no, we've got lots of material. We're going to widen out. Do you still, it's, it's never made sense to me either, but I mean, I guess, look, there's lots of people that have made a lot of money that would probably argue and say that we're wrong. So I was going to say, you know, I don't want to be that guy who is so adamant. He's right. But it's actually wrong because those guys have all been extremely successful and they have the ability to store warehouses of, of red metals. They've obviously, you know, more successful than you and I, because I, to be honest, can't store warehouses of red metal. I mean, that would take up like a ridiculous amount of capital. And if they're able to, yeah, good for them. They're obviously more successful and we should probably have them on the show and be learning from them. Sorry, that's okay. I don't take offense to that. It's not you. It's me, but, um, and obviously you, uh, it's quite interesting. So you set up compass going out there to create a new brand, really, you were going to explain people. And also you were in the U S and CMI was in Canada. So, um, you were going out saying, Hey, trust me, I'm a new broker in town. How do you recommend. That sellers, so scrap dealers bring on new buyers. So what sort of process should they go? What should they be careful of? Cause you're going around saying, Hey, try me. I'm new. What should they be careful of? I mean, obviously, uh, everyone that's selling material these days, it gets bombarded with, with messages through whether it's LinkedIn, WhatsApp. I mean, we all just, the conventions, when you go to the convention, that's when the fun really starts. That's when the fun really starts. B I R, Israe, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what, what it is, and we go through the same thing because, you know, we're selling a lot overseas and trying to figure out who do we sell to, like some direct homes. I think what it is is I'm a big believer this is a relationship business. So I mean, to me, it's, it's try to try to build, see if you have a rapport in dealing with the person. And some people might think that that's, you know, that's a silly thing because we're talking about a commodity, but my belief is that when you're dealing in a commodity like ours, like all the ones that we do, where there's gray area, and there's so much that can go wrong. Um, I think that having a relationship, trusting the person going into it is is a big, big deal. And then the other thing is, is we're a very, we're very much a boots on the ground kind of company. And I think that it's important that, you know, if you're going to deal with someone, uh, you know, maybe you could do a trial, try something, get some references on them, do one or two loads, but I think it's important to have them see your facility, uh, understand what you do, understand, you know, why something might work and might what, like something might not work. Like I'm not a big. Priceless guy, right? So like, you know, I I, I was on the road this week with one of our traders visiting yards I'd never gone to. And, and you know, he, one of the dealers was telling me about how someone keeps sending him a price list. He's never been there. And, and I, I, I was just thinking I was there and I saw the challenges this guy had as far as the way he sells his material, the way he decides what he puts together, when he needs to move it, how he sells it. I'm like, if you don't go. And see this guy in person, you have no idea. And like, and so even if you do happen to do a deal, it's going to go badly because you don't actually understand his business and in our business, I feel like so many scrapyards are unique, you know, like I've been to, I'd love to, at some point, you probably been to a lot too. I'd love to, like, I'd love if I had in my head, how many I've read too. Like if, There was some sort of mental count. Like how many countries you visited? Like, right. No, you probably got a lot on that. Uh, but, but, but they're all a little bit different. And so like, I think just going and making the effort and, and that should go, you know, if you're selling to someone invite them to come and see your yard, you know, like you can try a load or two, but really get them to understand if it's possible, or if you can't meet them at a conference, you do something, but try to get them to understand what you're Your business, your challenges, and if they're not interested in that, you're probably not going to be a good long term partner. Anyway, if their whole thing is, they're just going to throw you a price, then the second that a problem arises. They're probably not the person you want to deal with. And unfortunately, like, you know, we could sit here all day and say that we haven't gone through problems, but the reality is that's just part of the business and you're going to go through problems. So you want to deal with people that when shit hits the fan. Then, then, then, you know, that you're dealing with someone that, you know, has got your back. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, um, relationships are the real currency in this industry. Like we absolutely need those relationships are so vital and in its partnerships. I mentioned it earlier. It's really having those partnerships, um, with your counterparty. And I like the idea of actually invite. Your buyer to come and visit you because usually it's the buyer going. Oh, I'm going to be in your area. I'd like to come and see rather reach out and say, come and see me. Like let's you want to do business with me. That's great. Take your time. Come and see me. Let's create a partnership. Let's work on how we can do this. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And how do, how do suppliers become preferential suppliers? So hopefully achieve better prices, have homes for their material when others don't, you know, what are the kind of tips there? I think, I think it's, it's, Having consistency in, uh, quality in volume. I think that's, that's the key to it is, is just, you know, if, if someone's always, You know, someone's always shipping you and they have a great product every time. Let's say all of a sudden you have less orders, market changes, you're going to, you know, as, as the buyer, you're going to say, Hey, I want to take care of the person that every month is, is making sure that, you know, your price has to be in line, but every month is shipping to you. I think that's what it all comes down to is just making it easy because. The truth of it is, you know, as we say, we go through things, that's just that's just how it is. But, um, you know, if you can get into a consistent rhythm with someone, I think there's just so much value in that. Like, we all have those trading partners that you just know, like, it's like clockwork. It's going to go great. We're going to get through, you know, we're going to do these deals. And I think that then it just makes it easier than the person says, Hey, you know, I'm under pressure at this industrial account. I need an extra couple cents on this material. You're going to do it without even blinking an eye because you know, you want to support them because they've supported you. It's not really rocket science, right? I mean, it's, it's really simple. Be reliable. Like if you can be reliable when it comes to quality and fulfilling your contracts. Or agreements like immediately you're a preferred supplier because there's no doubt involved. The trust is there. They know you're going to supply the right quality or a good quality. Um, yeah, absolutely. Like I think, I think you said the most basic things, um, which a lot of people find really difficult, which is weird. Just be consistent and be reliable, um, very simple, but not very common, I should say. Yeah, and it's funny, uh, there was a yard I visited, I think it was last year, and it was, it was crazy what the guy said again. And this even ties into talking about the importance of getting to know someone and visiting someone. And, and the guy said to me, he was showing me his tape taper, uh, package. And it was, it was pretty rough. And he said, no, no, I thought you were going to say he was showing you his package and I was like, wow, bro, we don't need to know what you get up to and how you get new business. Anyway, so he says to me, he says, well, it's, it doesn't look very good, but I just export it and if I get a claim, I just tell them no, And I move on to the next person. It was like one of the most disheartening, shocking things. Cause I'm like, I literally got in my car. I was with another one of our traders. And I just said, Hey, just want to clear. I will not, we're never doing business with that person, but like, it's just crazy that like, that some people think that you can grow a business in our industry, especially because. It's a, it's a big industry, but it's a small industry. Right? So like, absolutely. Your reputation just, just carry. So, I don't, so that, so coming back to the consistency thing, it's like, you know, if, if, if that same yard is just making a consistent good package, you don't have that issue. And if, God forbid, there's a problem, by the way, if once with 1 in every 20 loads, you have an issue. Much easier to deal with it. You know, if you're having an issue on every single load, no one's going to want to deal with you very quickly. I mean, that's, that's the reality. So let's, um. Change, I guess, tracks a little bit at you and I've spent a lot of time, especially in Atlanta, made up most of the breakfast talking about technology. Obviously I've been building buddy. Um, you guys are a buyer on the platform. It's great to have CMI as a seller on the platform. So having had that discussion generally about technology, where do you see the industry going as a whole in the next 10 years? I mean, it's such a, it's so hard. It's such a hard question. I asked the tough questions. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's no easy ones. Somebody has to ask these tough questions. I mean, I guess look specifically with, with technology, I think, uh, the, the most interesting things that I think we're going to see is just the development of, of, uh, at the yard level operation level is. Is the sorting technology like specifically with me and aluminum. I mean, I think in the next 10 years, we're going to see things change massively on, on that front. Um, as far as, as tech and trading, I mean, I think, you know, what, what you're doing and obviously there's a lot of people that are in that space. I think. Um, that are trying to get into the space and it's something that no, no, one's really figured out yet. Um, I think you're, you're on your way. And it's just trying to, like, it's, it's taking people from that. We all believe it's relationships to saying, okay, we acknowledge its relationships, but. We need technology to help us trade more efficiently and it doesn't mean replacing the relationships embracing it, but saying, okay, I can still do my job, but I can. Take some of the use tech to take some of the fluff out that I don't need to be doing, but still have that relationship. So I think that's what it, what's going to change. I think that's, what's going to be successful. I'm sure there's going to be people that are going to just try to make it the platform, which I know we spoke about where there's no interaction. You don't know who you're dealing with. I just don't think that works. I don't think that works in our industry, at least for long term relationships and partnerships. Um, I think if you try and build a platform for this industry and it's not relationship led, if you're not leading with relationships, I've got a question. If you even come from this industry. Like for me, Scrappies wouldn't use a platform that doesn't have anything to do with relationships. I wouldn't sell to somebody I don't know, and I wouldn't buy from somebody I don't know. So we absolutely led with that. And buddy, um, and I do think technology is going to change a lot. I think what you spoke about, um, with the aluminum sorting. You know, you said 10 years, I think we're going to find five years, the grades that are coming off these eddy currents, you know, and these new sorters are going to be chalk and cheese to what we're dealing with today. So it's also something to stay on top of as a trader and an operator to be, how can I maximize this material and get as much out of it as possible? So, yeah, I think I'm obviously excited about it. I'm a part of it as well, which is quite exciting. Sure. Look, if you're ever looking for a job, you did a great pitch there for Buddy. So if you are ever looking for a job, although you've got children, so you can't run around the car. No. Say that. I know I was gonna, that I'm not, not forget, I don't bring, I'll bring them with me. I'll, I'll just say backpack and I'll all mate. Tell me who, um, who would you like to see next on Born Scrappy? Um, are we talking traders operations? Give me both bro. Give me whoever you got. Tell me well I'm gonna be a little bit Hometown Gary Kaplan. I mean that would be amazing, but I don't I would I don't think you're gonna get him I know I know. Um, so not that it's a I mean second prize, but a good second prize I think I think that nick waller agreed would be great to be a great Would be a really, really cool guest for you. Chatting at Israe. Um, absolutely. Nick's phenomenal. So Nick from CMI will be on for sure. Cool, man. Yeah, no, I think that would be, that'd be very good. Hopefully he does worse than I do. Little competitive. I mean, so when Nick was, Nick was training, he, he actually slept on my couch when he was training at CMI. And I mean, he was obsessed with Scrout from day one. Um, and. Like he's just, uh, we've got a good, nice, uh, back and forth competitiveness, but very, very impressive. Okay, you just let me know if you slip me like 50 bucks I'll just like I don't know line up something and just put him on the spot with something He would never know the answer to Yeah, or we could get like ex girlfriends on the yeah Oh, did you want to tell us more about that now pablo Nick, I hope you're listening. Pablo's gonna tell us now more detail on that. No, no We're gonna edit this out On that note, let's um, finish up. Let's get to know you personally a little bit better. What's your favorite movie or TV series? Uh, I would say, I mean, TV series, I'm a, I'm a classic. I'm a Seinfeld guy on the comedy. I just don't think anything will ever beat Seinfeld. And I've seen Jerry Seinfeld live in like two months time in Auckland. Very nice. And then, and then, I mean, if we're going to go on the serious side, I love Breaking Bad. I mean, I think Breaking Bad is, it's, it's one of the only shows that, uh, even got the ending right, which Seinfeld didn't. So it's like one of those like Breaking Bad to me is just like perfection. Yeah. Cool. Um, have you got a favorite place you'd like to visit or what is your favorite place you'd like to visit? Well, I don't, I don't think, I mean, I've got the three kids now. We don't do that much. The travels kind of, uh, a little bit, cause we want to wait until they're older to take them cool places. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Uh, but we did a trip. Uh, we did a trip a few years ago for my parents, 50th anniversary. To Cinque Terre in Italy, um, which I'd been to Italy a couple of times before, but, uh, it was just, I mean, it was amazing place to go. It was just my, my parents and no kids, all like other siblings and spouses. Unbelievable. I mean, the place itself was great and just, we made awesome memories. So that's somewhere I would love to go back to. Yeah, cool. Um, I don't know how much you read or if you even have time to do it much, but have you got read any good books? And I'm so bad with reading and now it's getting awkward because my two older kids are like reading non stop and they're like, why don't, why don't you read? I'm like, am I going to have to start faking, faking reading? I honestly, I, I, it's so bad. Put your iPad inside your book and like, watch it. Okay. So I don't, I don't watch a lot of, I don't watch anything anymore. I listened to podcasts. Um, I listen to podcasts all the time and like all kinds of different, you know, sports news, all kinds of podcasts. And because I like scrap metal, you didn't say scrap metal and scrap metal, of course that's news. That's news. So, so I, I, I have to be honest. I don't want to get called out because if I lie about reading. One of my friends is going to, this will get clipped and someone will go on and be like, no, Nick, Nick's going to come on. I like, he doesn't read, he doesn't even know how to read. No, exactly. No, I, I honestly, I, so now like, you know, my days are pretty long. I get back, I spend time with the family and then I'll throw on a podcast while I'm making lunches for the next day. Getting ready, getting, I go and check emails, do all that stuff. So I'm like podcasts. That's, that's my favorite. That's cool. Um, industry loves quotes, inspirational or whatever. Have you got a favorite quote? Um, yeah, but I got, I wanna read it so I get it right. Can I read it? Yeah, for sure. Alright, let me, let me get these. I don't know if you could read. This will be proof that I can. So it's actually, um, sounds silly where it's from, but it's in, okay. I'm Canadian. So keep that in mind that the Barenaked Ladies have a song, which is a cover of a Canadian songwriter named Bruce Cockburn. Not a great name, um, called Lovers in a Dangerous Time. And there is a, uh, there's a quote that I love from that, but I want to get it exactly right. It says, nothing worth fighting comes without, nothing worth having comes without some sort of fight. You gotta kick at the darkness until you see daylight. And I love, I love that quote because I just think it's like, I, like, while I was building the business, like, I love that quote. I just think it's like, it's, it's truth. Like, it's like, it's, it sounds cheesy, but it's like, like anything that has any value that you really want, nothing comes easy. And I mean, I think that the, I, I had a harsh lesson in building my business, which, which was kind of a funny story where after two years, you know, sitting in Gary's office and he said to me, did you think this would be easy? And I said, yes, I thought it would be easy. And, uh, and, and it was, it was, uh, it was a lesson, right. But, but I mean, I really do believe that, that everything in life that's worth having you. Um, you, you got to fight for it. And he knew from experience that it wouldn't be easy because he had been through it, setting up his own company. Um, I like that you proved that you weren't very good at reading as well. Um, when you made a mistake there, you obviously did that on purpose. Yeah, exactly. Uh, mate, it's been awesome. Pablo, thanks so much for being on Born Scrappy. Yeah. Looking forward to seeing you again soon. It's a pleasure, man. Thank you. It was my pleasure. We'll talk soon. Awesome. Cheers, bro. Thank you.