Born Scrappy
The go-to podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders
Born Scrappy
S2E15: Winning plays for trading with Greenland America's Vishal Jatia
In today's episode, I’m joined by Vishal Jatia.
Vishal is the owner of Greenland, a third generation family-owned trading company.
Vishal is one of the most recognisable figures at every conference and seems to be buying from every metal recycler in the world. You'll never hear a bad thing about him, And for good reason. He's a great guy and a pleasure to do business with.
In today’s episode we talk about:
- Changing industry perceptions
- Navigating regulatory change
- The power of a handshake
- Knowing your consumers
- The 3 Cs of partnership
- And much more!
WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?
25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...
I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.
I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).
I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.
Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.
COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN
Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I chat with Vishal Jatia. Vishal is the owner of Greenland, a third generation family owned trading company. Vishal is one of the most recognizable figures at every conference and seems to be buying from every metal recycler in the world. You'll never hear a bad thing about him. And for good reason, he's a great guy and a pleasure to do business with. In today's episode, we talk about changing industry perceptions, navigating regulatory change, the power of a handshake, knowing your consumers, the three C's of partnerships, and much more. So let's Vishal, but first intro.
Hi, Vishal. How are you? Hi, Stu. I'm doing great. Uh, thank you for having me on the podcast. Really appreciate it. Oh man. Um, it's my pleasure. We, we did business for, for so very long. So it's, um, just wonderful to have you on the show with me. No, thank you again. You know, I think, uh, we're across all geographies, you know, uh, you and, and, and us as well, and we keep traveling to all of these places and, and, and, uh, It's good to finally, uh, get the time and sit down and, uh, and actually get this, uh, get this interview going. I think that'd be great. And I'm looking forward to it for sure. Vishal, you know, it's so funny that, um, so many times I do these interviews and I'm doing it with people that are busy, right? You're busy. You're always traveling. I mean, you're between two or many more countries, but you pretty much live in two different countries, right? Um, and. To find time for everybody is really difficult. So that's why I always start with like, I really appreciate, and you in particular, like I know because we speak quite a bit, I know how busy you always are and I know how much you run around. So thank you. Tell us, Vishal, tell us a little bit about, I guess, how you got into this industry all the way up to why you're so busy at the moment, which is just the phenomenal growth your company's had and things like it. Well, no, thank you for the kind words too. And, um, you know, I, I want to say I was born scrappy, right? Uh, I, I, uh, you know, my grandfather started the business back in, in the 19, in 1980, and I was born in 1981. I'll get you a, I'll get you a cap mate. I'll get you a cap'cause you were born scrappy. Oh, there you go. Okay. Um, no thank you. Uh, so, you know, my grandfather started the business back in 1980. Uh, we started off with a scrapyard in India. You know, uh, we actually had our own warehouse. We used to import material from overseas, bring it in. We used to buy from exporters, bring it into India and then actually sort the material and, uh, sell it to, you know, the end consumers, um, over time, towards the end of the eighties, early nineties, my grandfather decided to go to the U S. And actually start to buy from scrap yards and set. Uh, so he moved over to New York, uh, and then eventually we moved to Atlanta, which is now where our head office is. Um, and he started to buy scrap, you know, he literally went, uh, to a few scrap yards around here and just started, you know, looking at the material and then, you know, sending the scrap over. And my dad and uncle used to be here in India. importing that scrap and then sorting it and, and, and sending it out, you know? So while growing up, I always heard, you know, honey and ocean and talk and birchcliff. And, you know, I did not know what those terms meant, um, at the time, you know, just a little bit about me. Uh, I, um, I was born and raised in India and I, I did my high school here. And then I went to the U S for my undergraduate, uh, studies, graduated from the university of Pennsylvania. In 2003, um, I decided to work with American Express, uh, in New York in their consulting arm. You know, they have an internal consulting arm called the Strategic Planning Group. Uh, I wanted to gain some experience in, you know, working in the U. S. because I hadn't done that before. And I think that experience was just absolutely phenomenal for me. Uh, they actually put me on a project in Australia for six months and, you know, I was there and it was just one of the best experiences I ever had. Um, in 2004, my granddad wanted to retire and kind of, you know, he was thinking about, you know, uh, coming back to India and, you know, not really pressure, but it was more about, okay. You know, he wanted to make that move and I felt that, okay, I think this is the right time for me to kind of step in and, uh, you know, try and help grow the business, uh, even more first, learn about the business and then grow it. Um, in 2003, my dad had actually gone to China and he set up an office in China because we were already trading scrap from the U S he lived in China for three years and we set up our office in China, uh, over there. So in 2004, when I joined, I went to China. Um, To actually get training, uh, you know, and that I think, you know, those six months, I actually stayed in Shanghai for six months and I think those six months have taught me more than the 20 years, you know, that I've been here because that told me, okay, what is it that my consumers truly want? You know, what are their pain points? What is it that they like? What they don't like, you know, how, what is their culture like? You know, how do you, how do you. Talk to them. How do you interact with them? How do you build that relationship? You know, at the end of the day, uh, and then when I came back to the US, you know, I just had so much of an understanding, you know, of scrap and metal because I had been to the yard and got my hands dirty, you know, understanding the material and just haven't looked back ever since, you know, and, um, since then, you know, I think we've built a great team, um, around the business and I think we're fortunate, you know, to be where we are at the moment. So how many officers have you got around the world and where have you got people currently? So our head office is in Atlanta and we have two physical offices, one in India, in Mumbai, and one in China, uh, in Guangzhou, uh, at the moment. And then we have, you know, just trading offices, right? Uh, um, so we have traders in the U S in South America, in Europe and in Australia, New Zealand. Uh, and then we have an entire sales team split between India and China, uh, because that's kind of where we do most of our sales. So. Is where most of your purchase is coming from. So which, which middle markets, scrap middle markets are you buying from? So our sourcing countries are mainly US, Canada, Mexico, South America, um, Australia, New Zealand. Um, and we've just started to get into the European and the UK markets. Well, UK, we've been there for a while, but we've started to grow into Europe as well. We also, apart from scrap, we also deal in semi finished products, you know, like ingots. So we buy ingots, you know, from Pakistan or from India or from a few other countries. Uh, so these would be some of our sourcing, sourcing market. Um, and just final question, a bit of more information on you guys. Um, what is the main focus for Greenland commodity wise? What grades are you, are you strongest in? I know, but tell everybody else. No, sure. It's, uh, basically we are non ferrous focused. Uh, you know, if, if we were to do, you know, a little bit of ferrous every now and then it, uh, it would, you know, be something not that we're not looking at it. It's just, hasn't been our niche, but it's definitely a point of growth area going forward. You know, it's, it's something that we do want to look into going forward, but otherwise it's been non ferrous, you know, the coppers, grasses, aluminum, slag stainless. Uh, pretty much all of these weeks. Cool. All right. So Vishal, you've been doing this for a long time. You're born scrappy, right? So, you know very well that the way we learn in this industry is through making mistakes or actually doing the work. Now, You would have learned a lot in these years, which kind of means you probably made a few mistakes. Tell me, um, it doesn't have to be a mistake necessarily, but tell me about a trade that went wrong. Tell me about something that you had to deal with, which was a really tough situation, something that'll stick with you forever. And it's kind of set up how you operate now, you know, what you learned from that. You know, it's, it's really as a trader, right? It's very hard to pinpoint one particular thing because. Every morning when I wake up, Stu, I, I'm like, okay, what is the new challenge for me today? You know, uh, we're operating in all of these different geographies, right? Uh, right from the west side to the east side. And, uh, you know, the biggest challenge for us is basically, I would say is government policies, you know, in each of these different countries. It's so important to know, okay, what's going on in which country. And how that is going to impact your business, you know. In the short term and in the long term, uh, you know, just, I mean, quick examples, you know, China implemented the green fence policy, right, where all of a sudden you couldn't export mixed metal scrap into China, you know, and now you had to, you had all of these containers on the water and now you had to find different homes, you know, for all of that. Pakistan, right, maybe a year ago, uh, the government did not have any forex reserves, you know, left. They couldn't remit, uh, US dollars, you know, and that comes, you know, again, you have all of these containers on the water and. Now your payments are getting late because the buyers had certain quotas that they had to work with. So you have, you know, payments getting late. In India, you know, the government had a policy where they implemented a pre shipment inspection certificate for every shipment. And that policy kind of just took place immediately, right? Effective immediately. So, you know, anything that was shipped out tomorrow had to have a shipping inspection, but there wasn't a path, you know, given to you, uh, outlined very clearly on how exactly to do that, you know, so all of us exporters would get together and collaborate and put our heads together and come up with, okay, this is what we need to do, uh, and this is how we're going to do it. And just when you think, you know, you've seen it all. Uh, a ship in Baltimore goes ahead and crashes into the, into the bridge. Right. And we have 12 containers on that ship. Um, and now we think about, okay, how exactly, and what's going to happen and how are we going to get those back? And then how the insurance is going to work or, you know, all of those different things, right. Um, so challenges are there, you know, every day. Um, I think the biggest challenge for us was during the COVID times. Um, You know, and, you know, just even before describing the challenge, I think it was more of, you know, I want to set a framework for how we tend to deal with those challenges, right? And I usually follow the three C's, you know, it's communication, commitment, and collaboration, right? You know, the challenge during COVID was basically that, uh, the world came to a standstill, you know, uh, we just, even the shipping lines were not, you know, It's accepting bookings from certain ports, but there were no containers available. So we had all of these containers that we had bought, you know, in the U. S. and in Australia and, uh, the market was continuously dropping, right? And we just couldn't ship these orders out, you know, and orders are generally 30 days, 45 days, right? And so the buyers would call us, you know, obviously wanting the shipment. Uh, and you never know, right? You're in that little in between place, you know, where you don't know how this is eventually going to plan out. But I think, you know, when you start with the communication, right, in that, in that situation, you've got to be proactive rather than being reactive. You've got to be able to pick up the phone and call your buyers and suppliers and let them know of the problem up front, you know, this is the issue. This is what we're having. You know, I want you to know that it's going to be a little bit late, right? But I want to let you know that, you know, before you have to call me or ask me about it. The second part is the commitment. You know, you always want to. Confirm your commitment on both sides. You know, you don't want to leave that open saying that, well, I don't have, you know, shipping. So now I can't ship it. You know, a supplier doesn't like to hear that. And neither does the buyer, you know, depending on which way the markets. So you want to confirm your commitment on both sides. And then you collaborate, right? And by collaboration is you brainstorm, right? You communicate, you talk to your supplier or your buyer and discuss ideas on how you're going to eventually resolve the problem, right? How are you going to fulfill that commitment? Uh, you know, and it's, it's on both sides. And as long as you have the commitment and the intention is there, I think through collaboration, there are always ways to find a solution to any problem. I need to jump in only because that's probably the best thing I've heard on Bourne Scrappy. Um, it can be used in so many other aspects of your business, right? In this industry, and I'm sure in many other industries, but the three C's are excellent. And one thing I want to make very, very clear is that I pretty sure, probably 99 percent sure that I had sales to you. When COVID hit, I'm pretty sure I needed a commitment from you. We were communicating. I think that literally all went down in the exact way you explained it because New Zealand was getting no container ships. We literally. Couldn't get out material on the water. Like it was impossible when that went down. Um, that's why I moved to bulk on my HMS for the first time ever. And that was being forced into that position. And I remember the collaboration. I remember the commitment. I remember the communication. Like you never said to me, you've got these three C's, but I absolutely remember that that's how it went down. So that is. Amazing. I absolutely love that. I think it's just business ethics, you know, at the end of the day, and at the end of the day, you know, your counterparties want to know that you're dealing with a good and reliable company. You know, is everything going to go to go smooth every time? You know, probably not. Right. But it's that time you use where you discuss the issue and you try and find a solution, you know, and you always want to be in this for the long term. Yeah, we're in a partnership, right? And you've got to consider it that every single time you conclude a trade with somebody, you have to know that you now have a partnership. You are committed to supply the material and the quality that you have offered. And the other party is committed to make the payment on time. And both parties have committed to operate in an honest, reliable fashion. That's great. Right. It's a partnership. It's collaboration. It's exactly what you said when tough times happen and they will like, don't ever think it's going to be smooth sailing when they happen. We need to work together as partners, but it's also what makes our industry so exciting. Like so many people on this podcast have explained that every day is different. Right and it is you can go and trade other commodities where it can be boring and simple you wake up in the morning and you Do whatever you do. I don't even know what it is they do or how they keep busy, but I know how we keep busy because we are constantly being thrown spanners, right? Things are coming at us, changing direction. Um, it's always up in here. You never know what's happening. You have to stay on top of things, which is, you know, exactly what you spoke about, know what's going on in the markets, know what's going on in the different countries. Um, But it's what makes it exciting. Exactly. You know, have your eyes on your reputation and your ears on the ground, you know, and adapt to situations as they arise. I think that's, that's, that's what. Yeah. Yeah. And, and Vishal on that note, can you think of a tough decision you've had to make in the past? I mean, that was a tough trade and a strategy for trading, but any tough decision you've had to make? So, um, you know, I, uh, I would say it's more a personal decision, right? Um, we, uh, so I was in the US from, you know, after graduating, joined the business in 2004. In 2006 I got married and my wife moved with me to the us. Uh, you know, we are both from India, parents live here, so we moved to the US in 2006. In 2010, you know, when my wife was seven months pregnant, uh, we had a decision to make, right, on do we want to stay in the U. S. or do we want to move back to India, you know, because we've been talking through the years and saying, okay, we, we kind of want to go back to India because we want to raise our kids in India. You know, we wanted our kids to grow up. With the family, right. And in India, you know, there's a very strong family culture, you know, the values, um, the kids get to spend time with their great grandparents, you know, their grandparents, all of their cousins, um, So it's just those roots, you know, and we kind of wanted to give them, you know, that identity right, uh, over here, of course, that meant that, you know, if I would have moved to India, then I would have to deal with certain challenges, you know, one of them being the time, um, because it's, it's totally opposite, you know, it's 4am in the morning right now. Uh, and you know, this is what I've been doing for the last 14 years, right? So it obviously meant I had to work the night hours. Uh, it obviously meant I had to travel a lot more. Internationally, because coming from India, if I have to go to meet the suppliers in the U S or, you know, anywhere else, then I would have to travel a little bit more, but then, you know, there were pros, there were cons to the other side as well, you know, living in the U S we were kind of, I was doing everything myself, you know, and I felt that I had reached a point where. I wasn't able to grow as much, you know, um, so coming, you know, eventually we decided to come back to India. And after moving here, I was almost forced to decide, okay, I need to hire a team, you know, because I can't do this all alone living here in India. So I need to hire a team, you know, and that was really the start of our, Kind of, I would say a growth story, right? Um, we, I, I, I was very fortunate to have, you know, great traders in the US, in, in the UK, South America, Australia. So we had all these regions that we were buying from. Uh, we decided to open an office in Mumbai. Uh, where we would do all our back office operations and each of these regions had their own back office, uh, nine. So our, our office in India actually runs 24 hours and we have three separate shifts, one that handles the Australian, New Zealand, one is UK, Europe, and one is the, uh, us and South America. And once we figured that out, you know, we were printing a BLs over here. We were doing our logistics, you know, our bookings, our accounting, you know, slowly, right, we kept building this. This was about a three or four year. Kind of, you know, period where we said, okay, this is what we want to do. Um, you know, I, I just felt that now was the time when I would have the time to actually go to different countries and start to grow the business, you know, a little bit more. So. You know, looking back in hindsight, I think, you know, that decision of coming back to India was a tough one, but it actually worked out in our favor. And, you know, when you're thrown into, uh, you know, a certain spot, right. And I heard you say in one of your earlier podcasts, right, you, you jump off the cliff and you build your plane on the way. Right. And, uh, I think that's kind of what happened to me, you know, when I was, uh, when we decided to move back to India. Yeah, it's, um, I mean, it's exactly that, right? You take the leap and you're forced to make a decision, right? You, I mean, you're forced to do something about it. You, I guess you've made the decision. You're forced to now actually act on it. And, and often amazing things come from that, right? You weren't planning on the growth, but you were forced into position where you had to. And it also reminds me of, you know, one plus one equals three, right? You can't just rely on yourself. You bring in an extra person, all of a sudden that extra growth, you know, multiplies very, very quickly. Um, and yeah, you, you obviously, I know well that you've grown into that sort of size, but you, you still spend a lot of time in Atlanta. I didn't know you fully moved to India. So. Um, how do you work with that? Um, so I actually, I mean, I, I live in India now, you know, my kids go to school, uh, here in India, but I just keep traveling, you know, maybe every three months I would probably go to the US, you know, just to make a trip. Uh, I, I usually try to plan it around the conferences. Uh, you know, I think that kind of. Kill two birds with one stone and, and try and plan it that way, right? Whether it's the CMRA in China or the BIR or the MRAIs or the ESRIs, you know, and these conferences are just amazing, you know, these, these organizations, I think the amount of information and the resources that they provide is just absolutely phenomenal. And, uh, so I tend to plan my travels around that and, uh, that's how I do it. You know, my wife doesn't always necessarily enjoy it, but, uh, I try and limit it as, as much as possible. Um, I could selfishly carry on in this conversation for a while, because I'm based in New Zealand and most of my work is in the U S so currently looking at, uh, moving the family over there, um, for a period so that I can still see the family and while also working. But yeah, to understand exactly how it's worked out for you would be interesting, but let's move on, mate. Um, cause it's not, I'm not sure if everybody wants to just hear about my selfish need to find out more about that. When we talk about. You know, you've been doing this for a really long time. Is there any highlight that sticks out for you? Something that's just been, you know. Cherry on the top that you've experienced in this industry? You know, uh, I, I don't think I am qualified to answer that question, so, uh, it's, it's, I'm still young and, uh, you know, I'm, I, I, I haven't reached that stage where someone can give me a lifetime achievement award, you know, yet. So, uh, I, I, I hope that, you know, it's yet to come. The best is yet to come, but, uh, uh, but you know, having said that, I mean, I think I'm just really satisfied, you know, with the way. The company, the baby has grown, uh, you know, over time and, you know, with the way that the team has been built, uh, I'm very thankful to, to my family and parents, grandparents, you know, and the entire extended Greenland family, you know, that, uh, the amount of effort, uh, you know, and the dedication that each, each person has shown, you know, I think it's really gotten us, you know, from, from where we were back when I started in 2004 to where we are today. Um, you know, I just couldn't have done it without the entire team. So, uh, thank you for your Oscar award speech. Um, but just to clarify, this was, I wasn't awarding you a lifer. Um, you know, for me, for example, and I've never really said this, but what is the highlight for me since I've been in this industry? It would probably be, um, Working with my wife. I mean, that sounds crazy. Cause everybody else is like, that is the toughest thing. You never want to mix, you know, work and family with it. I absolutely love it. Like she's a. A weapon, like she's a gun, she's incredible. And I don't know if I would know that or appreciate that as much if she wasn't also my business partner. Like if she went off and did her work and I didn't mind, I wouldn't necessarily know that as much. Um, and the appreciation that we have for each other or that I have for her definitely, um, comes out of that. So one of my highlights of working in this industry is. Doing it with my wife. So that's, that, that's kind of, anyway, I got the opportunity to say that. Nobody asked me that before, so, um, I'm glad I could say that. No, absolutely. Now that I think about it, right? I mean, you got me thinking too. Um, you know, when, when my wife joined in 2006, you know, she had the IT experience, right? And, and I think that's one thing that our company was lacking. And, uh, she's actually built our entire, uh, ERP system. You know, and this was back in 2006 when there wasn't an ERP, and it was, it was a lot of brainstorming and coming up with, uh, with different things, but all the different modules, you know, the purchase order, sales orders, the bookings, the linking, uh, the outstanding positions, the hedges, you know, all of that. Uh, we were able to build that, you know, in a period of a year and a half, and we actually use that to today. Uh, right. Even today, Given the growth, I mean, that that system has been pretty scalable, uh, you know, to today. Of course, the technology is a little bit outdated and we're looking to kind of implement something new, but, uh, I think without that system, you know, in place, we would not be able to track, you know, all of what we do. And I think things would be a little messy. So I think that's first, when you first said, Oh, my wife also, I was like, well, Vishal, you can't now say it's too late just because she's listening. You can't now say, Oh my, I also love working with my wife, but you backed it up really well with giving some good figures on what she's done and facts and figures, I guess, to say, well, actually she built an ERP system, right? So, okay. You get away with that one, right? Um, do we both got very similar highlights of this industry? Absolutely. Tell me what, what sort of. Tips and tricks. Would you give the listeners that are trying to, um, have a better trading strategy? So this could also be some, um, that I've visited recently, even though you don't necessarily export a lot, they sell a lot of domestic or, you know, what sort of tips and tricks can you give people to either grow their exports, to be better exporters, or even just to sell better in general? Um, you know, there's no right or wrong answer to this because, uh, I think, you know, each person has their own, uh, strategy, you know, that they use. Um, What we use, you know, is we, I mean, because we had a trading company and specifically focusing on non ferrous metals and the non ferrous markets. Are just very, very volatile, right? So we, you know, we do everything back to back, right? We don't take on a speculative position, um, or try not to take on any speculative positions at all. Uh, it's, it's, it's pretty risky. You know, if you think about it, you can be right 50 percent of the time and wrong, or it could be even more aggressive. You can be right 70 percent of the time and let's say you're wrong 30%, but the amount of money that you make in that 70 and the amount of money that you might lose on that 30. I think would be far more than the amount of money you make on the 70 over a period of time, you know, and especially in the non fair space, right? Because the markets are just so volatile and it's, it's almost impossible to, to read the market. So I would suggest, you know, uh, back to back trading as far as possible, if your business allows it. Um, we obviously hedge our metals that we buy, you know, we hedge it on the LME or on the COMEX, uh, we hedge our currency as well because we are buying in different, uh, countries, so we have to hedge our currency too, um, you know, and then, you know, the other thing is obviously you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket, uh, you know, you don't want to sell everything to one buyer. Uh, you know, sometimes you do come across buyers who can pay a better price, you know, maybe 30 or 40 a ton better than anyone else right in the market. And there's always an attraction to sell to that buyer, you know, and to make that little bit extra, but. You know, you have to be able to spread and diversify your buyer base, you know? And I think that's really important, you know, having, you know, Your credit limits in place, uh, your exposure limits in place, you know, to each buyer. Um, I think it's very important. It'll also help you get the best, uh, you know, you, if you're only talking to one buyer or two buyers, you're not going to get the best price a lot of the times, you know, so because we are selling in different countries, we literally for every offer that we get, you know, we have to reach out to Malaysia, Thailand, China, India, Korea, uh, And literally collect prices from almost, you know, 15 or 20 different, uh, buyers that we get based on that, right? That is on what all of that is on whatsapp, right? It's uh, as of now it's on an excel sheet and whatsapp and wechat and in 10 different places Uh, so so that's a bit of a that's a bit of a mess. Uh, But but yes, you know, so we do collect prices from 15 different places put them all together and And then we need to work out, okay, what is the F. O. B. or the F. A. S. price need to be based on the different freight rates and what's the best price that we can offer to our suppliers, you know, so there is a lot of work that that goes behind that. But, you know, you do want to reach out to as many buyers as possible. Um, In order to know that, okay, what the markets are and what the prices are in which markets, so you can take the best decision for you. So there's so many things there that I want to touch on, but I'll try and keep it short because I'm just loving listening to you. I'm loving listening to you talk. But. The 70 30 you explained earlier and you said, you know, well, the 30 could be a lot higher and your losses could be a lot higher. It's quite interesting because I believe that your 70 could be higher and your 30 could be lower. However, the 70 that you make extra. So that's really, and we'd be talking about. Not hedging and the percentage of times you will succeed versus the market will go the other way and you will lose. We're saying that even if it is 70 percent of the time, which it won't be, but if it is 70 percent of the time that you get it right, and even if that is as positive as the negative is negative, it's the risk. It's the actual risk, the gambling that takes place because the 30 percent could put you out of business. That's the difference here. Like that 30 percent can sink a company. The 70 percent will make a company really profitable. And that's great. You'll carry on in business. The 30 percent will take you out of business. You were in for a short sprint. You weren't in the marathon. You're out of here. If you cover your sales, right? So all your material is constantly sold, right? And you you're buying and selling in a similar market. Yes, you might not hit that huge profitability, but you also won't go out of business. Absolutely. I think you've absolutely hit the nail on the head, uh, still, you know, consistent small profits is better than the bigger swings, you know, because like you said, the losses can eat into your capital. And eventually leave you with nothing, you know, and that's not the goal, uh, of, of a business, right? I mean, that's, that's gambling, that's speculation. So, you know, our philosophy has always been, you know, make your small profits, but consistently and over time, you know, you'll see the pie grow. Look, I could speak to you for days on the 10 to 15 messages for every single time you're getting, um, offered material, trying to put it into every market, because I explained to everybody you need. To offer it to every market, you can't just be beholden on, I'm pretty sure Vietnam is paying the best price at the moment. How can you take that chance? You need to know every single day, you need to be putting the material into every market to make sure because every day changes and every buyer supply and demand changes with every single buyer, every single day in every single country. So. You have to put it out to everybody. Um, yes, it is a process and on WhatsApp, there's a lot of chat that goes on. You can't just say I'm selling this. It's always a, how's your family? And it's a long conversation. Yeah. Let's not go into it for too long because we could be, uh, we could be here all day. Um, when you are finding a new buyer, what you're constantly doing. As well as all the metal recyclers doing, what do you look for in a new buyer? So I think, I mean, you know, just the basics, right? I mean, you have to do your due diligence, right? And I think that's, that's the most important, you know, starting with taking references, uh, you know, I think that's what we start with, take references from other buyers in the same city in which that buyer is in, you know, that's, that's the easiest way to actually know, you know, about that buyer and learn about that buyer, but then also take references from. that buyer's suppliers, you know, and you can ask the buyer, you know, who are your suppliers and talk to the suppliers about their experience with that buyer. Um, and we find that both the buyers and suppliers, you know, are very open about giving, uh, you know, references. Uh, but obviously that's not enough, right? You've got to go and visit the consumer. You know, there's no substitute for actually being there. You know, everyone says that they're the biggest buyer of so and so material, right? But when you go and you see, okay, they have a, a, a You know, a 20 ton furnace, and they can only melt one or two containers a day, you know, you know, that capacity is 500 or 1000 tons at most in a month, you know, and so by going there, you actually get to really understand, you know, what is the buyer's capacity. How clean is their yard? You know, how do they treat their employees? What is their financial position look like? Um, and you know, I think once you've established all of these factors and you've said, okay, you know, it's, it's a good company to work with. You still start slow, right? You still sell them one or two loads, you know, to begin with, see how everything goes. You know, you also want to make sure you understand what the buyer's finished product is and what is it that they are truly making. Because then you know, the exact type of scrap that they're going to be happy with. In order to retain them as a long term customer, you know, some people say, well, I want to buy King Tabor, you know, and we're like, okay, but what is it that you make? Right? And if you're making a particular kind of product, you know, maybe it's not King Tabor. Look, I have this other product for you. It's a shredded aluminum with this chemistry. Which is probably going to suit you better, you know, and then all of a sudden he's like, well, I didn't think of that. And then he likes that material. And now you have a very good home for that one type of material, you know, which that buyer wants and what he can use. Uh, so I think you really need to go into the depth of every buyer and every consumer and what is it that they want. So you can find the best match, right, for your product and the consumer. And then that just becomes a long term, uh, you know, partnership, partnership. Partnership, right? That's what came to my mind straight away. When you, somebody's asking for Taintable and you're saying, well, what about this aluminum shredded product? That's a partnership. You're collaborating with somebody and trying to help them and you have the supply. Um, that's immediately a partnership. So it's quite interesting, your explanation of you must go and visit. It's important that you see what they can handle, what size their furnace is, et cetera. It's the same on the other side for you guys. I mean, as a trader, you're buying and you're selling, right? Um, and you're buying and selling, you're buying it as a principle. So you guys really have to go and visit the supplier as well, because otherwise, well, they're supplying you shred. They don't even have a shredder. Absolutely. So, you know, and that's what we do. I mean, uh, you know, from 2004 to 2010 when I was in the U. S. Those six years, I think I was on the road two weeks every month, uh, you know, visiting different, uh, different states, different suppliers and just going out and, and, and visiting them. I didn't, they didn't have Google maps and I had, I was using my Yahoo maps and, and, and, you know, going and visiting them. But, uh, I think that is really where, you know, you realize, okay, which are the suppliers that you want to do business with, you know, uh, which even within that, you know, what are the products that are really good and what are the products that are so, so, you know, and you're not quite sure about it. And you need, you have more questions about it. You just learn so much, you know, every time you visit. And then more than that, you actually build your relationship, right? Because this business is all about trust and relationships. Um, it's, uh, you know, you don't know of too many businesses where you're transferring, you know, hundreds of thousands or even million dollars just on the word, right? I mean, sometimes you have a contract, sometimes you don't, you know, and it's, uh, you know, you just do it, right. And it's, uh, it's amazing, you know? So. That relationship, that trust that you develop with your, you know, counterparties, right? Buyers or suppliers, uh, or your freight forwarders, right? Or any other vendor that's associated with you. Uh, I think that's absolutely critical, uh, in this business. For sure. Try, um, start a tech company. Higher tech people and try to explain to people, well, we don't always have a contract. Yeah. It's worth two and a half million dollars, the whole shipment, but I don't know who they don't really care who builds the contract or if there is even one, because it's just a handshake. Like it blows people's minds that this is how we operate. But for us, It is so normal born scrappy. We've been doing this all our life. Like this is the normal way of operating. Move to another industry and see how you cope. Like your management would be like losing their shit at you because you are trying to do deals without a, without a contract. Right? No, absolutely. You have contracts, you have contracts, which are five. It's 10 pages, uh, big and even, even bigger with all of that fine print. And then you have to sign it and return it back. You know, I can't remember the last time a supplier signed a contract and sent it back to me, you know, and I love that that was your explanation, your explanation, actually, you were like, and you have to sign it and send it back. I mean, that sums up, I actually want to use that as an advert and kind of just like show my people in my company and go like, here is a perfect example. Not only was it the contrary. But actually signing it and sending it back. I mean, that's just crazy. It's, uh, it's going to be hard to explain it to my children, you know, honestly, right? I mean, it's the new generation. It's going to be hard to explain it to them, but this is how this business is done, you know? And, uh, I think if you have that trust and belief in your counterparties, anything is possible, right? So you spoke. Yeah. You spoke about Yahoo maps, um, and, and things have progressed slightly, right? I mean, luckily you didn't have to use a paper book, right? A map, right? I mean, I would know how I would cope in another country with a map book. I don't even know how my wife. Would leave the house and she's going to hear this. So this isn't behind her back. Right. And she's quite open for me to say that she struggles with directions. Right. So how she would be able to go the same thing about my wife yet. But I tell you what, like. If my wife had a map book trying to get around, it would be scary. It's hard enough on Google maps. Okay. Um, so let's talk about that. So Yahoo maps, Google maps technology. Where do you see this industry going in the next five to 10 years? Technology is ever changing. I mean, you know, when I started, I mean, we were still. Faxing things. You know, I was still faxing like my grandparents or my dad must have been doing something different, right? I mean, it's a pigeon. They talked to me about deluxe messages and, you know, probably pigeons at that point. But, uh, it's, you know, technology has already evolved, right? From faxes, you know, to emails. And now it's instant gratification, right? WhatsApp and, uh, WeChat and, you know, all of your other, um, social media platforms, you know, that are out the show. Um, Osama reminded me the other day of BBMs. Do you remember BlackBerry Messenger, that was in between. We all forget about the in between. That was the first instant messaging. That is true. And I used a lot of that for at least three or four years. You know, uh, I was addicted to that. I mean, that was what we used until WhatsApp and WeChat kind of came along. Um, but you know, technology is also evolved in terms of equipments, right? I mean, 20 years ago. They didn't probably, or they had, I don't know, but, you know, eddy currents or census orders, or even if they did, it was not as sophisticated as they are today. Right. And who knows what's going to happen 10 years later. You know, you might have much better technology to be able to sort material in 10 times, you know, a better way. than there is today. Uh, you know, you never had these x ray sorters and things like that. Um, so I think that that's, you know, that's, uh, that's going to change, you know, pretty good. But, you know, some of the other changes that I've witnessed right over the years, I mean, I want to come back to the associations, you know, uh, when I started, I think there was only the ISRI and the BIR, right? Um, and now you have, you know, the MRAIs and the CMRAs and the BMRs, the RAA. Almost every country has now its own association. Of scrap dealers, you know, and history and B. I. R. from what they were to where it is today. You know, I think that network has grown, you know, tremendously. Um, and that value, you know, that. For traders like us, you know, that's the best platform to actually meet suppliers and buyers all together on that platform, you know, so that these associations have really helped us, um, grow and become, um, who we are at the moment. I also think that the perception of the industry has changed, right? Um, you know, uh, earlier it was, you know, junk, right? And then it became scrap metal and, and now it's recycled materials, you know, and, and I think there are some tremendous people doing. Unbelievable work, you know, in order to change that perception, and I think the, the, the advantage that it has, it's actually attracting younger talent. Now, you know, in the industry, people didn't want to get into the scrap metal industry, but they want to get into the recycled materials industry. They want to, you know, know how these raw materials are used to build all your hospitals and planes and, you know, everything else. Um, I was showing my kids, you know, uh, John Sacco's repurposed the other day and they loved it, you know, it was absolutely fantastic. So I think with that, you'll see a lot of younger talent, you know, being attracted to the industry. So I think this industry is actually. Boys to grow, you know, for the better, uh, eventually it just has to. Yeah, I totally agree with that. Um, I'm fully invested, um, time, energy, money, everything into this industry. Um, to grow, you know, you speak about the repurposed show. I mean, everybody should be showing it to their kids. Everybody should be making an effort to getting it shown at their kids schools. Right, because it is huge. If we can get that as a start, if we can get that shown at schools, it's a huge leap forward. And then you've got the Scrap University guys, Brad and Jess, that have created these incredible books for the younger groups, um, you know, the younger ages, if we can get that at the younger schools. I mean, the, what will come through though that, you know, the next generation will be chalk and cheese, you know, we'll be left behind because the next generation will just be absolutely brilliant and super motivated and driven to make an impact in this industry, information is key, you know, and the more information that you can put out there. I think the kids nowadays, they absorb everything so quickly and they ask questions. Um, you know, I mean, I have 13 and an eight year old and the amount of questions that I constantly get about this. It just shows the curiosity, you know, about everything that's to do with this industry. Every time I work, you know, they come up, I work from home. You know, living in India and working in the night hours. So I have my kids around me, you know, all the time pretty much. And, you know, they hear and they see things and, uh, they start getting excited, you know, from a very early age, uh, you know, which is great. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Vishal, is there anybody you'd love to see on Bourne Scrappy next? There's so many people, Stu, you know, and, and actually, honestly, I think a lot of them have actually come on your show, you know, I have a lot of mentors in the industry, uh, you know, that have been there, you know, Bob Stein, uh, was there, um, of course, John Sacco, George Adams, you know, everybody, uh, knows them, um, I can't think of just one person, you know, to, to kind of name it, but it's just, uh, I think just, you know, looking at your show and seeing all the people on there, uh, I think it's, it's absolutely. And it was great to have your wife on the show as well. You know, I think I got to learn a lot from that too. So, um, yeah, awesome. I like that. I'll try and get her on at the end of season two and we'll do something similar. Sure. Um, Just let us get to know you a little bit more Vishal before we run favorite TV series or movie A movie I would say, you know, and I've watched this with my kids. It's it's the pursuit of happiness Uh, it was mentioned in the last episode. Oh, really? Uh, okay. You want me to change that? No, no, no. It's, uh, it's great. Will Smith. He's incredible. He is. I mean, I, I absolutely love that, that movie. You know, it just brought up the emotions, right? About it. It's a true story and it just brought up the emotions, uh, you know, of a father, of a husband, you know, of a, of an employee. And then, you know, how he kind of. Changed all of that. I think, I think that was great. Uh, and then some of the shows that I enjoy, you know, just, uh, you know, the, the thrillers, right at 24 and, uh, prison break and, you know, just the thrillers where you can just sit back and forget about work for a bit and, and, and just enjoy that. That's old school. I enjoy both of those. Well, I did long ago. Yeah. They were brilliant. Um, yeah, Michelle favorite place to visit. You've mentioned lots of countries you've been to favorite place to visit. I think this, this one has nothing to do with scrap really, but it's, it's the Maldives and, uh, I, I, it's only three hours from Mumbai. So it's really easy to get to. It's a direct flight and, uh, it's just fantastic. I mean, I love the beach. Uh, you know, when I was in Australia, when I mentioned to you for about six months, I actually got certified, you know, as a scuba. So now I'm able to do the dives, you know, uh, in Maldives. I took my two kids to actually do the scuba dives as well. So it was great. I mean, we absolutely love the place. We go there as a, as a family and, uh, it's, it's amazing. Um, I've never been, my family's been, uh, or my parents have been long ago, um, and it was mentioned also just the other day on Porn Scrappy, I think you copying Osama. I'm pretty sure Osama said both those two. Let's see if we can go three out of three. What's your favorite book? Uh, it's, you know, I, I'm not a very big reader, but I have read, uh, you know, non, it's, it's mostly. That's, that's what Osama said. I'm not, I'm not, I don't even know if that episode has aired or not yet, but it hasn't. It hasn't. It's all here. It's phenomenal. I'll put yours on first. Okay. No, and I can, I can, I'm happy to change that. I'm joking. It hasn't aired. Just so everybody knows it hasn't aired. So there's no way you knew those answers. Uh, but you know, I think my favorite book that I have read, which I enjoyed, this was a couple of years ago, it's, uh, Unreasonable Hospitality, uh, by Will Godata, you know, it's, it's, uh, It's a story of, of a guy who, you know, just had this, had this place, you know, it was a small restaurant and then how he built it into becoming the world's best restaurant. And he calls it unreasonable hospitality because everything he did was unreasonable. You know, it's, it's not a business decision, but he wanted to go. over and above everyone's expectations in terms of service, right? And I think if you can implement that in your business, you know, maybe not to that extreme, but at least the basics and just slightly exceed the expectations of your counterparties. I think that goes a very long way, you know, in, in building relationships. Um, you know, I, you know, I often say, you know, trading, I mean, of course, price is important, right? But you've got to have service along with that. Uh, I think it's a 50, 50, right? I mean, if you don't service your supplier and they don't feel wanted or your buyers, right? And they don't feel wanted, it's not going to last too long. You're not always going to get that last look, you know, that you want or that, that you would hope to get. Right. So I think service is as important as the price and everything else that comes along with it. Look, you're speaking, you know, to the converted, um, we try to build, when we built our drive thru for metal recyclers and for people to come and deliver to us, we based it on McDonald's. Like we wanted to have a drive thru like McDonald's. So, um, I think be unreasonable. With your expectation, like, go out and try and give the best, um, service that is imaginable, not just possible. Sure. Um, Vishal, what's your favorite quote? You know this one I have and, uh, I've, uh, I heard it about again a year or so ago, and it just stuck with me. And, you know, every time I started, my kids are like, oh, no, not again. You know, believe me, I, I, I just say this to them like, like constantly, it's a quote by Denzel Washington. I dunno if you've probably heard it or not, but, um, dreams without goals. are just dreams, and ultimately they fuel disappointment. On the road to achieving your dreams, you must apply commitment, but more importantly, consistency. Because without commitment, you will never start, and without consistency, you will never succeed. You'll never finish. Um, on that note, that's a great way to finish. I actually, I don't even want to talk after that. So, um, thank you for being on the episode, Vishal. This was incredible. I love the show. Um, thank you for joining us, mate. My pleasure, Stu. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Cheers.
