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Born Scrappy
The go-to podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders
Born Scrappy
S2E12: Perspectives from esteemed broker Osama Nadeem
In today's episode, I’m joined by Osama Nadeem.
Osama is the Director of Ferrous at Better Deals, a large broker in Pakistan. Better Deals are a very well respected agent, and I personally have dealt with Osama for almost 15 years.
In today’s episode we talk about:
- Doing what it takes to ship on time
- Optimising your trading strategy
- Why greed is dangerous
- Why we offer firm
- And much more!
WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?
25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...
I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.
I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).
I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.
Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.
COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN
Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I talk with Osama Nadeem. Osama is the director of Ferris at Better Deals, a large broker in Pakistan. Better Deals are a very well respected agent, and I personally have dealt with Osama for almost 15 years. In the show, we talk about learning from the previous generation, dealing with difficult situations, why greed is dangerous, why we offer firm, and so much more. Now let's get into it with the psalmer. But first, intro. Osama, how are you? I'm fine. It's true. How are you? I'm very good. Um, much better for seeing your face. It's been a little while. Um, we used to speak almost every day for many years. Yeah, that's true. And it was very interesting to be in touch with you. And it's been so long that we even met. So maybe looking forward to meet you at some conference very soon. Absolutely. I'll be, I'll be doing the rounds. So probably Copenhagen. I'm busy looking obviously for BIR at the moment. I'm sure you'll be there. You don't miss a BIR. Yeah. I plan to be there. In Copenhagen. Amazing. Osama, not everybody will know you by name. A lot should probably know Better Deals, the company. Um, but tell us a little bit about yourself for those that don't know you, or even those that do know you, how did you get into this industry? How did the family, you know, give us some background. Yeah, it has been an interesting journey. And I would like to first, uh, share with you guys that how the company was started. Actually, the company was started by my father and he used to be in the lending business and back in 1975 or so. And, uh, he used to work with his uncle, uh, who was running a brokerage house, uh, for iron and steel and mainly they were mainly into stainless steel and everything. So my father actually, uh, started a company in 1982. Name better deals. It was entirely a different scenario for the brokers, for the sellers, for the customers. So it was very different as compared to today's environment where we work in. So he used to tell me stories and everything. It was very interesting to listen to them how they used to Save money because they were not financially that well. They used to save money They used to keep visiting the customer because it was all a new business. They had to run around and Basically at in those times the communication was so slow That was the major challenge. You cannot communicate like you do today. So it was interesting to know that the letters were written in those times and you have to wait for like 10 days, 15 days for a response. So you can imagine how slow the communication was and how peaceful the life was. At that time. Anyway, he actually started with this in 1982 and then they started adding different commodities. It is actually a family business, but it is the family business. My father, as well as his brothers, my uncles, there are four uncles, my father actually started it. And then they, he kept bringing in the other brothers for the workforce and to develop more and more products in the company. So. If we talk about me, actually, I was into the, into this environment, uh, since the early days, when I was a kid, I used to see my dad on the phone, always talking about strap and the coils and everything. So I used to be influenced by that, that what kind of businesses does that you were on the phone? Because it's not like a seller or a buyer. When you look at these picture, From our end, we have to handle the sellers. We have to handle the buyers and we have to keep ourselves engaged in it just to ensure that both are getting the right service and things are doing in a correct manner. So I used to see that he's visiting the customers. I sometimes I used to accompany him to the customers. Sometimes when I was at office, some of the customers were visiting. I used to see the troubles as well, that the customers are getting disturbed. And they are complaining about things and what has gone wrong, or maybe we were not wrong, but they had different expectations. So my learning came from very early stages from the early age, and even during the school. By the way, initially in those days, Pakistan was off on Fridays, not Sundays. Now it is the regular holiday, Saturday and Sunday. What we used to do is that Friday was closed. And then at that time there were no emails and no windows. And, uh, they used to work on faxes. So fax used to come on Friday and my father was so aggressive about the response and handling of the queries that he used to send my uncle to the office. And I accompanied him on the holiday. We used to go to the office, pick up the faxes, bring it home, give it to my dad. And he writes a response for that. And then we fax it back actually. So, we used to, I remember that we used to have a fax at home as well. So this is how interesting it was. But later on, uh, when I was in high school, I actually went to government college university and allowed, that is one of the reputed university, uh, here. And my office was like, uh, at a two kilometers distance from the university from that university. That was my high school. I was doing my 11th and 12th grade in that school. And when I used to get free from the lectures, my father had instructed me to come to the office directly, uh, from the high school. So I used to start going to office in those days. It was like maybe 2003 or four in those times. So I used to go there. I used to take care of the correspondence, what emails are coming. At that time, the emails were introduced and we were on to the emails. The previous generation was not much used to using that new technology and things. I was very excited to learn those things and to see, How we need to send the email, how we need to follow. I used to play on Windows at that time. So it was very interesting time when I actually started to go to office. It was studies plus some work. I used to do the filing as well. I used to read the LC's. I used to read the shipping documents. It was my responsibility to give a cross check and to keep a tap on the back office actually. So that was the real university for you. Yeah. Uh, it is, it was very interesting. I think that is the base which actually gave me a chance to learn everything at that grassroot level. So it is helping me till now. And with time it kept on getting stronger and stronger. I actually kept learning, uh, through the time anyway, uh, after the college, I used to go, uh, part time at that time. And when I entered the university, I actually went for the bachelor's of business administration. And later on, I did my master's. My major was finance. I did MPhil in my finance. So when I went to the university, then actually it was my responsibility to come to the office. I was more regular. I used to have my own customers and my sellers, and I used to correspond with them basically on email. Uh, WhatsApp was not there at that time. And if you remember, we used to have BlackBerrys in those times and there was a BlackBerry. I used to trade with you probably on my BlackBerry. Yeah. BlackBerry was very interesting and very prestigious. Thing you have to do in those times. And there was BBMs. Do you remember BBM? Yeah. Blackberry messenger. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. That was the first instant messaging for business. I would say people loved that. And when the WhatsApp came in later on, some of the people did not adopt WhatsApp even. They were very much used to using the BlackBerry, but later on things changed. But anyway, in those times I was actually looking after my some set of customers as well as some of the sellers. They were my responsibility to look after and to have the queries and have the sales made. So at that time I was actually in the university when I did my first sale. And I remember probably my first individual sole sale was for the real scrap and Probably it was from south africa, which must be interesting for you Was it from me? I think so. I think so. It was from your first sale. It was it was from your company Yeah, yeah, so that credit goes to you. Are we talking? What year 2005 2006 it was 2005 Six. Yeah Yeah, you were there in those times. Yeah. So I, I joined, yeah, I was in cyber from 99. I was working in the company, but I only joined the trading team in about 2007, a year before the crash. So I saw all the great times before that I was working in the yards for about eight, eight years or whatever it was. Um, and then I moved on to the trading team. Yeah, so I might have just missed your first sale But when I joined we were absolutely doing business on it. Yeah, we were then in touch And we were trying to develop new products back then So it has always been interesting. I think scrap business is an interesting business Like the variety you have. We also have a different department in our office who handles the prime sales and imports to the customers. But I don't somehow feel that that is that interesting when you have the prime inquiry, you have the grades and everything and everything is actually documented. So it is not adventurous, I would say. Yeah. So this is how actually the company and the business. There's no skill in primary trading, right? Yeah, it's a bit controversial, but it's a lot more fun, a lot more fun on the scrap side. Yeah. I think it is difficult to adjust into any other side. Once you have started scrap business, then it is difficult to adjust in, in some other category. So Osama, for those that don't know, I mean, obviously, you know, we were the largest in sub Saharan Africa selling millions of tons a year. Um, and obviously we were selling to you, but for those that don't know the size of better deals and the kind of role you play in the general ecosystem, can you explain to us a little bit, um, what sort of volumes or how big you guys are? Yeah, Stu, actually the volumes have been growing over the period. First, I would like to tell what. Our main job is actually, we think that our main job is to give the gateway to Pakistan to all the, all the sellers and exporters setting any of the continent. We have been representing various top steel mills. India and Pakistan since 1990s or so. And we also believe that maybe probably we were the first ones who introduced the South African, uh, steel into Pakistan after the independence of South Africa. My father was very close, uh, to the guys, to even the recycling business as well as also metal and other guys who used to sell the, uh, Prime and the secondary stock list. And I remember when I actually was joining my father, initially, we used to receive the list in Excel spreadsheet of all the coils, the stock list, we used to find the customers for that list. And what we need to do is that if we have distributed in the five customers, it was my responsibility to actually break it down evenly into different customers. That was, that business was mainly with South Africa. So we have very fond memories doing business with South Africa. When I was so young, I visited quite a few times, South Africa. Uh, we have been to your office there as well. And as well as the other people, I actually really. Appreciate how we did business back then. But anyway back to the point that better deals has been actually Giving a gateway to the sellers exporters into the pakistan They have where they have to if they need to develop a market They don't have to do their kyc on their own. We have our own knowledge base of Like last 40 years, we have been in these people. We know that which customers are good in executing the business, who can create problems. And with time we have actually filtered the list as well. And that is the reason that the success rate actually immensely increases when you have that sort of knowledge base, then you are less exposed to the rest and things. Although the environment keeps on changing, we will come to that point that the challenges Pakistan is facing right now. But in terms of volume, uh, we had been doing around, uh, for the scrap business, we had been doing around 800, 000 tons a year annually. Uh, that is all mainly brokerage and the indenting like the, the LC will be established directly from the consumer for the exporter. And the similarly exporter and importer are actually doing the business directly. But that is being generalized through us. So for the scrap business, we are doing around 800, 000 tons annually. We are used to do that sort of volumes, but recently in last one or two years, it has actually gone down a little due to the complexity and the challenges due to the inflation. And those things right now, we must be doing around 550, 000 tons at the moment. And in terms of the flat products, we are actually equally good in flats as well. Uh, flats, we are doing around 500, 000 tons per annum. So that's sort of major volumes, which we do as well as we are doing the steam coal business with the cement factories into Pakistan and the powerhouses. So that is majorly a bulk business that is on top. As well as we are also handling the, uh, ferroalloys basically, which is being used by the furnaces. So we are also into that as well as the stainless steel and non ferrous actually motors, compressors by the major market for the compressor scrap. and motor scrap. So we are also doing that. Uh, the volume must not be that big, but we are actually into it and we are actually developing it right now. And hopefully the volumes would grow. And the first people in Pakistan, just for your knowledge and the audience knowledge that the first people into Pakistan, they're also coming into the non ferrous businesses because since 2023, early 2023, we used to face the dollar deficit issues. And the government is now focusing on the exports more on the exports that you, if you are importing anything, you need to do the equivalent export from Pakistan. That is the major shift now, and people will have to adopt that because by then it's such a country that we will keep facing such troubles. We are into exports now as well. We are also doing some r and o from Pakistan, some of the minerals from Pakistan. So these areas are the new areas, uh, for which we have already deployed the resources and they're working on it. But one thing is, sure, whatever we would export, we would be a hundred percent confident that the quality and everything is fine and it will be executed. So that is the service, what we are actually adding for the different stakeholders in the business. Um, Osama, you've been doing this for quite a while now, and I know you've mentioned South Africa a few times, but you deal with, you buy from around the world. I know you, um, the agent for some of the largest players in the world. Um, talk me through an experience that you've had before, um, which was a difficult trade experience and what you learned from that. Um, one of the major event what happened was, it's interesting. I won't say that that was challenging, that challenging, but it was a tough, uh, scenario for the customer and the seller. It is back in 1990s. My father used to tell me this, this even actually as a learning thing. He told me that the, uh, one of the customer in Pakistan booked a bulk vessel. It was a scrap shredded steel scrap vessel into Pakistan was in 1992 or 93 at that time. And it was meant to be loaded out of UK. And everything was fine going in line, but somehow the seller was running late and loading the cargo. The market was going down and, uh, what actually happened that they asked for an extension in the LDS, which was challenging for a vessels LC and they asked for two or three days extension, which we were expecting that the customer would be happy to accommodate. And they would be cooperating in the matter. Unfortunately, they told us that no, they would be needing a discount for the delay. And we went back to the seller. It was one of the biggest recycler in UK. And my father went back to him and asked for a discount. And somehow we agreed that, okay, it is our mistake. We are going to give you 10 discount. In those times, maybe the price was like 180 per ton at that time. Okay. In 92 and 93, my father told me and we proposed a discount, 10 discount, but the customer, a customer asked for some time to give him some time to make a decision. Next day he comes back and he tells us that whether it is 25 20 discount minimum, otherwise they are not going to proceed for the amendment and the cargo was loading there on the loading site. So everybody was worried whether the cargo should. Keep on loading or we need to stop the loading. So it was a chaos And somehow we went back to the seller and we told them that this is the sort of expectations from the customer And what do we need to do? So we the back and forth negotiations went on but at the end to cut the story short the Customer was adamant that he needs that discount seller was not going to give that discount what actually happened That they engaged more workforce To get the cargo loaded within the time the cargo was loaded within the time it sailed In time and there was not even a ten dollar discount given to the customer And it was like a learning lesson for everybody because it tells us two or three things. I think that if you're determined and you actually wish to do something, you can achieve that. You just have to put in the right resources and you have to actually think about it and you can achieve that. That is one thing. Number two, the greed, the greed is very bad. in scrap business as well. You just cannot go from making money in one cargo or at one time, it needs to be a slow and gradual process. You need to wait for the time, you just cannot make all the money in one deal. That is what we learned at that time. And moreover, the challenging time, if we talk about the challenging time, I would say, um, I think most of the industry participants would agree that we have not seen times like 2008 and nine. I was also new at that time from 2005 to 2008. We had just seen the boom in the market. It was like you are in discussion with the seller. You are going to sell it to the customer in a few hours. The situation changes. The salary starts asking higher or they get another customer who is going to pay 20 more than you. Nobody was able to understand that. And that is the scenario, which I think if we, if somebody has experienced that, that is a lifetime experience. And in those times, I still remember that how market went up to 700 or 750 for shredded scrap, uh, for imports into Pakistan. We had quite a few deals at those numbers. And when there were the defaults and the market started coming down, luckily, I would say that 85 or 90 percent business was executed as planned. It was mainly on the LC, but the rest of 10%, that was like, we did not have anything to tell to sellers. How we need to handle that. Somehow they also had to compromise. There were negotiations at that time. There was no one specific deal, but there were a few deals which had to go through that tough discussion and negotiations. And then after that, even when it had passed and the market came down to 350 and then it came down to 250. And I still remember that I again finalized some businesses at 190, 195 levels. And even then the customers who had lost money or who had compromised and negotiated, they were, they kept coming back to us for any preferential rate. To help them out. On the other hand, the sellers were coming back to us that they had lost money after due to the negotiation. They also need to make money now. So it was a tough scenario for us that to whom we have to actually who is actually the culprit and what's right and what's wrong. And how we should be handling that. So that was one of the actually major challenging time. And after that, um, I would say the second degree challenging time was in 2023. That was specifically for Pakistan. Pakistan. Yeah. The LC is actually stopped the, there were no dollars. There were rumors everywhere. The sellers used to call me that we are hearing about some defaults. Uh, I guess that would default. And unfortunately, Sri Lanka was the one who actually announced the default in those times. So they became more serious about that, that maybe the time has come when Pakistan is going to default and people were worried that how we are going to execute. But we, and those times actually, luckily it was not even 1%, which was where any of the orders were defaulted. Um, I don't remember any, Issue which any of the exporter had faced, we were able to successfully handle the transactions. We are sometimes the transactions had to change the payment terms. We used to get the money from the customers and we ensured that the seller is secure. They are not feeling the heat. Yeah, they might face the delays in the payment due to the environment of the market. We had made sure that there was no default and there was no loss of capital. On the seller end. So most of the cases were actually sorted in a right manner. So I would say that You you made me think about something early on with what you just explained I remember we talking 2007 2008 and the prices always go up and your story was great because you were saying A seller would offer you material and you would be going to the customers or going to the buyers to get a product. But by the time you went back to the seller, they had been given a new price and it was higher and all of a sudden their expectation was now 10 more. And even though it's, and that was, so what it made me think about was why do I always, when I offer material, I always say this price is firm. And I've always wondered why, because not everybody does that. And I think it's because when I started, when you offered material in order to have your agent, Offering it out into the market like yourselves. They needed to know that you're offering this material firm So if I come to you and I say I've got a bulk vessel of HMS 8020 and some shred Say the HMS 8020. I want 400 US dollars Um, you're going to say to me, okay, I'll go and market that for you. Is that 400, you know, can I use that price? And I would say that 400 firm for the rest of the day, which means if you go and sell it, I can't then go, Oh no, now on 410, it doesn't really count anymore because it's not like that anymore. The sale of the price isn't just going skyrocketing. But in those days you had to, it was so volatile in those days. And we don't know whether you are going to increase the price or seller is going to increase the price or maybe he's in touch with the other customers as well. And because in those times, if you remember, the customers were also very aggressive. They knew the situation. They knew that if somebody is in call, just actually lock it. On the call now, and they won't actually give you a time to go back and talk to the seller. No, no No, you gave me offer it is done. Yeah, it is confirmed from my side Now you go you do whatever you want to do, but it is confirmed from my side So that is the kind of scenario we have seen And I wonder how it actually went down. And, um, I think many of the people who are the new generation, the next people who have joined, they have not seen those kind of crashes as well as yet. And they can't imagine that. So, but we need to be careful and cautious in the trade. And, and I mean, I always talk about it, right? It's your best learnings. It's the hardest thing to go through, but the things that will stick with you for the rest of your life and will literally create the trader you become. And it's why my first question on the show is always tell me about a tough trade, because the idea is we all go through him. It's how we learn. Hopefully, you know, this helps one young trader. Who hasn't had one of those before realize I must be careful. It can crash. That's true. 100 percent true. Have you, do you ever consider collaboration a part of what you do? Do you guys talk about any partners that you've partnered with or some sort of collaboration that has helped build your business? We had been actually, this is our business has been a business, which does not require the assets. We, this is the human resources asset for us. And there had been challenges in terms of if we had. This is the family business as I told you, but we are actually working on Taking it to the next step and make it a corporate structure instead of just a family business because that is the Requirement of the time. So we are already working on that We are trying to bring in human resource, but I understand that you are mostly Pointing towards the collaboration with some of the company You Or with the seller or with the buyer in any of the terms now in this time It is not anymore just about the pricing I would say It is about the whole package. The customers are also expecting that we would be offering them something more than the attractive prices. Maybe with that, we need to look at the financing for them, or maybe we need to bash them up with one of the exporter who had enough finance with who can finance them. And we need to bring them on the platform where they could calibrate and we could act as a catalyst where they can both talk and they can reach an agreement and the terms, uh, which is actually win win for both of them. And then we actually make sure that it is being executed in that way. We have been looking at that and, and very different angles, even if Some of the services which we actually had to give in the hard times when there were shipped cargos Some of the sellers actually ship and which is unsold cargo It is shipped for India or for Pakistan at times the cargo that coming to Pakistan What we are doing is we are actually collaborating with them to receive the cargo in Pakistan Offload the cargo into Pakistan in the port vicinity, look for the customer who cannot establish the LLC, but we are sure that he would execute, he would pay locally. And then we are making, making a mechanism where they can pay it out to the exporter and he gets his money. He gets his material and both have the win win situation. So we are actually, we have been looking into that By will by our will as well as by force we had to go through such businesses Uh in past times So we expect that we would be continuing that sort of business and we would like to make it an advanced sort of business Where we can provide such services and collaborations for our customers and for the sellers, but we are not there yet, but we are already working on that and probably it will help all of the involved parties because in Pakistan, the things are expected to remain difficult. For maybe a couple of years or so, unless we have a better GDP, we have better investments, foreign direct investments, uh, but we expect with the new government, maybe by next year, the things might improve, but at the moment, uh, the capacities, uh, the mills are running on overcapacity, uh, they have to reduce their productions to meet the, the demand is not there. If, even if they are producing at 50%, the demand is not there. They are not being able to make money. So maybe they will have to look for these cost cutting methods and for somebody to bring in somebody to help them financially. Because just for your knowledge, uh, the interest rate in Pakistan is like 22 percent right now, which is killing for everyone. If you are producing at a 40 percent capacity and you have to, you have the long term financing and you have put in a lot of money because the last 10 year of the government, they were, it was like a hotcake. They were selling everything. They all expanded in anticipation that there would be more and more business coming in, but it actually backfired. And right now there are troubles. in the market and maybe they will have to look at more innovative ways to survive and to grow in such environment. So we keep looking on those opportunities and challenges, and this is our responsibility to bring the solution to the customers. Osama, you've dealt with hundreds of different suppliers over all these years. What do you recommend these metal recyclers do to optimize their trading strategy? So where do you see the opportunities for people to be better at what they do when it comes to selling scrap metal? Yes, if we talk about Pakistan, Pakistan has been one of the quality conscious market. And we have been in touch on different continents with different recyclers, whether that is a small yard, or that is a group of companies, the bigger yards, and then the mills, and I would say that whatever the company is, it actually depends who is actually on the seat. Who is actually looking after through the person, person also actually matters a lot. And also the company values, we have seen several sellers who are not concerned about the quality. They just compromise on the quality, maybe deliberately. Or maybe they are not that strong in the controls on the yard. They are not aware of what is going into the containers, what is being exported because whatever they are putting in the containers, we are going to get that out of the containers. It is not possible that they don't take care and we still get the best quality. So over the period 15, 18 years, I have seen that there are sellers who are very cautious about. Maintaining the quality and when they do that, maybe they won't earn the extra few bucks. They will have to invest on the resource and the systems to ensure that what they are being, if we talk about the shredding plants, what they are shredding. And how their machinery is, they need to keep investing in the machinery to upgrade the machinery to get the best product out of it. And I have seen those sellers as well who have compromised, but they have never been able to also the traders, not just the recyclers. There are many examples of many traders that who used to work, but they had to shut down their businesses. Or we see that we, if we, even if they are 5 less than the other market, prices, but the buyers won't actually opt for the quality or the quantity and same goes for the execution as well. It's not just about the quality. It is what orders you are taking, whether you can execute it or not timely. There are several exporters who actually don't care about that. They are just after getting the business. And then they forget what they actually committed for. So in my view, it is very important that you need to review. Do you need to keep reviewing what you are producing and whether you are improving the quality or not? If we are talking about shred, if you're talking about the HMS, um, you need to be very careful about that. And once you are able to develop your brand, then you don't have to spend on the marketing budgets. It will be, it will be the word of mouth. And it works the same way. It's not just for Pakistan. The word of mouth is everywhere, whether it is Bangladesh, India, Far East, wherever you are supplying and you are executing and you are keeping your word and you are keeping your quality maintained. There are no variations in that. And you are honest. Then I don't think there is anything which could stop you from selling or to grow your business. And I think that is the only way forward how you can grow. Otherwise, you will just keep operating on the same level, you won't be able to grow and it impacts even if you are losing money currently, you are going to make money if you are actually honest with your business. So that is what I'm planning for the long run, right? Yeah. Some focusing on that. It's a long race, not trying to make a quick buck by learning anything in a container. Take your time, build your brand, become known for really good, um, uh, quality. Interesting. You said something, you said some people just like to take orders and don't necessarily fill them. I bet you when the market crashes, they fill them and they don't forget about them when the market crashes. After they forget about them. Those sellers are called opportunistic sellers. Yeah, exactly. It's an entirely different term for that. They just come, they just barge in when the market is right and they take the orders and then they leave it on the market. If it goes up, nobody fills, nobody, um, nobody supplies minus 10 percent when the markets crash, right? Yeah, that's true. Everybody maximizes. That is one of the interesting subject. We are actually customers also keep coming us with the complaint. When the market is up, they need that 10 percent plus, and then when the market is down, they don't need that at all. And that is actually some of the customers started to give a minus and plus 2 percent only. Just to get rid of that. But the sellers are not happy with that. The sellers want to keep that edge with them. So, yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I think the sellers will keep that edge for as long as they, as long as they can. Yeah. Some of the people misuse that, but I don't think most of the people use that in their favor, but it is something which is necessary as well. To keep you covered well, what would you say? Um, these same suppliers These sellers should be looking at when dealing with a new buyer Because everybody's always looking to get new buyers. We're looking to get the best price. The market is fluid. Things are constantly changing. Just like how you guys have had since 2023, what should sellers be looking at when they're all bringing on a new buyer? Yeah, thanks to that. That is a pretty general procedure. Normally, what sellers follow, what even we follow, whenever there is a new customer, there is a new mill being set up. We need to visit them. We need to sit with the people. It is not, I am a personal believer of a thing that it is not just about the set of what they are putting. Or the sort of money what they are putting in the, in the setup, steel setup. Uh, it is more on the people who are actually going to run that. And what is their background from where they come? Is there any existing industry they are running? What are the norms of that industry? So what we normally do is that we sit with those people with the new customers. We visit their offices several times. We try to get in touch and engaged with the top management because the decisions are coming from that level. And if they have any of the manager procurement head or CEO, it does not matter actually. And it actually matters that what kind of mentality you are bringing in. So the best way is to judge them by the conversation. And even then, if you are actually satisfied with everything, you still have to give it a try. Whenever there is a new customer, however, you feel if things are okay, pretty okay, it's like 70, 80 percent you are satisfied, then you have to give it a try. And there is always a first time for everything. What I say that, uh, You will have to start, you will go through first deal or second deal, you will come to know about the tantrums they have, you will come to know about the commitment and once the market changes, it might drop like 20 and you have to actually very quietly notice the reaction from the customer through the conversation. What is going on in his mind? How is this 20 impacting him? Then you have to, uh, actually internally think about it. If 20 is giving that effect, what if market drops a hundred dollars, whether is he going to be there for you or not? Or you actually in Pakistan, most of the business, especially in last two years, it has been happening on the trust basis. Although I understand, globally, trust is not any standard to doing any business. Yeah, trust is there, but you have to cover all of your ends. You have to have the LC in place. You have to have the workable documents in place. So, but in Pakistan, we are in a situation where you take 20, 25 days to establish an LC. Market may move in that, but I am very glad to share that for most of the Pakistani customers, they are executing as promised. They value their commitment. And most of the businesses won't have any troubles. So much of the business, uh, with those actually sellers with whom we are working for like 15 years now, they really make it apart. The trust level and the grading of the customer is part of the algorithm. They just don't rely on the LC because at times, you know, that you can't always be perfect and making the documents and things. So there are times when you are relying on the customer and you need to have To have the good customer on the other end on whom you can rely. And there are many examples in Pakistan where the last year of shipment had passed, but, and the market was not that good and they also have their own challenges, but even then they got there to accommodate because they have been working for the last 10 years with the same seller and they cannot actually, they won't actually ruin their relationship for a deal or two. So this is the sort of relationships you have to develop. over the time period with the customers. So that you also have the peace of mind. You are just not working on the base of papers in your hand, but you also know with whom you are working on the other end. And it goes both ways. Actually, if the customer is doing that, then I expect from the seller as well, that they will also be that much lenient when the time comes and it happens, the market goes up by 50 and the sellers are still there. They are not just sending an email with a notification. That your contract is canceled because you did not give the LC in 10 days. They are going to give more extra margins to the customer and they will ensure that it is executed properly. So that is it. Um, Asoma, you spoke earlier about fax machines. I actually wrote it down. You, you spoke about fax machines and BlackBerry messenger and. It really had me thinking. So firstly, I want to say there's an incredible movie on the BlackBerry story that you can watch. And it's literally based on how BlackBerry grew at the speed they grew. Um, and then how management kind of took the eye off the ball and how they ended up nowhere. It's a great, great movie. I love those kinds of movies. That that's very much my genre. Um, so great movie. I can't remember what it's called. But yeah, really, really good movie. Um, and then you spoke about fax machines and I don't know if you remember, there was a guy who used to work in the office, um, with me. It's called Matthew McCray. Yeah. And Matthew used to tell me the story about fax machines. And you know, when I was there, it was, we were emailing already, but, um, he's to say that when, when you worked in one of the yards, we had 85 yards and when you landed it up in trouble. So you got into some form of trouble in the yard and your management They would have to send you a letter of warning and it would come from your hr department Really and they would send you a letter of warning and that's how but what happened was they used to do it Via fax machine now, you would just receive an email in your personal email So what they used to do was because no one else could see it. They used to phone you and say Please go stand by the fax machine and then you would go and stand by the fax machine and you knew that you were in trouble for management and you would be faxed through your letter of warning. So they were all, they would always laugh about if the manager phones and tells you to go stand by the fax machine, you're in trouble. Things have, things have progressed since having to go stand by the fax machine. Where do you think we'll be in 10 years time? What does this industry look like in the future to you? I think keeping in view the how our world is actually changing and evolving, I think it's impacting everything. It's not just the steel business. Luckily, or by chance, we see that the scrap recycling business has been the focus of all the world. We never got such highlights and limelight, um, in terms of, you know, The past decades and now everybody's talking about the recycling and it makes me also feel very good when everybody's talking about the recycling and the greeners and I feel that this is something which has to happen. The greener thing that people are getting more and more educated about the issue and the governments are also going to support that eventually. And I feel that if we look at the tech, how tech is changing, I think there is still a big gap in our sector. We are not that advanced as yet. Um, if I talk about the sellers and the recyclers, yeah, there are machineries. The processing has been improving at tremendous pace as well. I feel that it will keep on improving. Moreover, as you are also working on B2B platform, that is something there was a big gap. In that region. I think more and more tech would keep coming in and it's not only you other people are also working on those sort of projects. And also, I am seeing more and more tech involvement in the ERPs, they are becoming more and more intelligent. And I think, uh, the major shift that we would see in the next 10 years would be the governments are already pushing for the shift from the blast furnaces to the EFs right now. I personally feel and congratulate the scrap recycling industry that obviously more and more scrap is coming. It's actually required in the times to come. And I think the value of the scrap within a country or with a company, it would keep on increasing with time. And obviously there is not an unlimited supply of scrap available in the market. So we need to actually process it more keenly to get the most out of it. And it will be helping mankind, I would say. So, and further changes I expect is that with these platforms coming in, probably this negotiation and things might get simpler. There would be more and more clarity moving forward after three or five years. You will have, although for till now, people had been trying, but they were not able to reach an algorithm where you can actually measure all the aspects like the quality, like the financial muscle, and then the, the, the person would execute the deal or not. So there are a lot of things which are not still documented. And you have to go with your gut feeling. That gut feeling factor is actually the thing, which is not letting things automate, but I hope once the, these projects keep coming in, we will have more and more intelligence and improvements in it. It has to start somewhere. So hopefully I see that in next five, seven years, we will see more and more EFs coming in. The blast furnaces would be mostly reduced. The production would be reduced and then hydrogen based steel that has to come. So I think it's all about the new technology. And also sometimes I really feel about those people who had been investing in the technology recently in last five, seven years and the technology is changing so abruptly and fast. That they were just done with it and now they have to start thinking for the next thing. And if we talk about the changes in the next 5 10 years, in Pakistan as well I see a lot of changes. A lot of, uh, steel furnaces and rolling mills are looking into the alternate power generation. When we talk about zero carbon, although Pakistan is far, far away from that thing, but fortunately or unfortunately, the electricity is so expensive. So for their own sake and for the earth's green environment sake, they have to go for the green alternates. Uh, there has been a lot of investments going on into the solar sector. So most of the solar and wind power would be used by our steel sector. By that way, maybe they would be able to reduce their costing because electricity is so expensive. So probably that is the only way they would be able to compete. And in that sort of transition, hopefully we would be helping our Mother Earth a lot. So these are the changes which I expect in coming years. Forced into change is, uh, is a great way to save it. So, um, I don't, I don't really mind how it happens if people are being forced into make that change. Well, so be it. That's great for all of us and the whole planet. Osama, who, who would you like to see on Bourne Scrappy? So who, which, what guests should I invite next? Yeah, I don't think I should, uh, take the names, but if you really ask and insist, uh, there are a lot of people, because I had joined the, when I had joined the business, there were a lot of people of my father's age. They had been like my teachers and my mentors because we work with more than 80 or a hundred sellers, so we know. Quite a few, quite a lot of people actually, who are very intelligent and business savvy. And there are many people I would actually like to see on Born Scrappy, but would you name a few? I think I would like to see Mr. Sanjeev Garg of Indica to be on Born Scrappy, or maybe it could be Ashish Choudhury of Global Mutkoff. He can be here. And David, if we could get some time, David Shepard or Robin, so they are the people who actually I have been, I have spent many, many years with them. I know them. They have been in the business since so long and they might have a lot of more experiences to share with the audience. I speak to Chris quite a bit. Yeah. Chris, I have been trying to get Chris to Chris. That would to come on would be great. That would be great to have Chris on board. Of course they have the medicine. Well, I, I am trying, I would say, I'm going to send him this, this piece and I'm gonna say, look, the, it's what the people want, Chris. Yeah. We want him. You want him. And actually they have the legacy with them. Yeah, of course. My father used to work with their father actually with Mr. Philip Shepherd. Asama, um, last few quickfire questions before we go. Yeah. What's your favorite TV show or movie? I watch a lot of TV shows and movies. I recently started watching a lot, like in the last two, three years. And as we talk about the season, I really like the season Suits. And apart from that, I really like the movie Pursuit of Happiness. That is one of the movie, which is very touching. I would say. Yeah. Will Smith. Amazing. Incredible movie. Yeah. That is going to be a movie as well as there's one movie, 10, 000 BC. I don't know whether you have watched it or not. It's about the old human beings, how they used to work and things. 10, 000 BC. Is it a comedy? No, not a comedy. Not a comedy. No, then I don't know. Okay. So these are quite a few movies, which I actually like. And I have seen quite a few times. Very nice. Yeah. And, um, you must've traveled all around the world. What's your favorite place to visit? I would say I like Maldives. I have been there with family and I would like to go there again. And also we like Singapore a lot. Singapore is one of the place which I would really like to keep visiting. It is so different. Yeah, it's great. I was there a few weeks ago. So, If you ask me about one place, well, we'll see you at the BIR in October. I think it's October. Um, yeah, it's in Singapore. Yeah, no doubt you'll be there. And definitely I'll be there. I'll be there then. I'll definitely be there and we'll enjoy. Have you got a favorite book? A favorite book you've read? Uh, no, I don't actually read much of the books. Um, but I had read Rich Dad Poor Dad because somebody recommended that classic. That was interesting to read. Yeah, I read it. And also I am more into reading the articles. And the business intelligence and our markets are doing so that, uh, current affairs thing actually, because, uh, because there have been, uh, more and more current affairs coming in every week. There is a new news and now every news is actually impacting our markets. It's very important to keep an eye. Anything can happen anywhere, either it can be Bitcoin, it can be Russia Ukraine war, can be any bridge collapse. Anywhere or anything. A hundred percent, anything good to stay on top of it all. Um, have you got a favorite quote you like? There is no such specific quote, which I would like, but actually I am a true believer of saying that if you are actually determined about something and if you keep trying for something, then I am true believer that you can achieve that. And you need to just keep chasing and following that. And you need to be open. Your word is not the last word. You have to listen to others. You need to understand. And what I follow mostly is the, the major quality I would say, which I would like to develop further is empathy. You need to have the empathy, especially in this business, in my business, you need to have the empathy. For the people we are working with and that is what we actually focus on in our company. It's huge It's huge as an agent, right? Yeah, you really have to understand the other party. I mean you're collaborating all day with both sides Empathy is huge That is the major block especially at least in our business. That is how actually we Create our value. Osama, we're going to end it there. That was awesome. I loved Chatting to you again. It's been too long and was great to have you on the show. Thanks so much for joining us It was so good to be here. Thank you very much for inviting me. It was a very much fun session for me Thank you very much. Thanks. Thanks Osama. Cheers. Welcome. Cheers
