S2E11: Pile of Scrap interview with John Sacco and scrap duo Stu and Lisa Kagan

In today's episode, Born Scrappy host Stu Kagan and his wife and business partner Lisa join John Sacco for a candid convo about their latest recycled metals venture, Buddy.

Buddy is a relationship-led recycled materials marketplace built for scrappies, by scrappies. And it launched recently at ISRI 2024, where this episode was recorded.

In today’s episode we talk about:

• Starting over in a new country
• Building a metal recycling co
• Making hard decisions
• Dealing with setbacks
• The Buddy launch
• And so much more!

If you liked this episode, you can hear more from John Sacco on Pile of Scrap wherever you get your podcasts.

YouTube - @SierraInternationalMachinery

Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4zlieQqEd8AUlMe0NpteZo?si=a24ac961e9514a78

Apple - https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewPodcast?id=1473656821

To find out more about John Sacco:

https://sierraintl.com/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-sacco-8a8a1b10

To find out more about Buddy:

www.tradebuddy.io

WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

Transcript

0:02

The following is an original audio series from Sierra International Machinery, Pile of Scrap with your host, John Sacco. Well, hello everybody. This is Wednesday, day three of, uh, Israel's national convention. I'm here and got the pleasure of having my, well, I don't know what to call you, my South African friends or my New Zealand friends, but I got Stuart and Lisa Kagan. Welcome. Thanks John. We don't mind what you call us. As long as you call us, John. There you go. All right. I'm calling you. So, welcome. I'm happy to have you guys. You know, it's funny. You started podcasting and you started following me. I started following you, you know, a few comments and actually, you know, we meet in Abu Dhabi. We, we, we didn't know each other, but we met. It's like, hello, old friend. Yeah. How good is that? It felt like we knew each other, right? But it, but it did. Yeah, absolutely. It felt like we were friends for ages, but I got a question for you. Why in Abu Dhabi? Didn't you bring your secret weapon? Cause I was keeping a secret. It's out of the bag now, dude. Now it's, now it's, after this podcast, she's going to take over. You got that, right? You hit it on the head and she really is my secret weapon. So we let it out. We launched, we launched Lisa to the market. You unleashed the beast, right? There you go. That's great. Well, you guys got a fascinating story. Okay. From South Africa. Yeah. Net you're now in New Zealand. So let's go back to South Africa. Stuart, you're from Cape town, Johannesburg. Yep. Now is it Joesburg or Joberg? Joberg. Joberg. All right. You guys somehow meet. Yeah. Right. Now you have been working in the recycled materials industry since 18 years of age? 18. Straight out of school. Yeah. Straight out of high school. Yeah. And you, where did you go? College? Uh, went to uni and then worked in uni, um, University of Johannesburg. Okay. Yeah. College. Can you speak English? Oh, university, college. Yeah. Sorry. Wrong part of the world. All right. So Tell us about your journey in the recycled materials industry because we've talked, you know, since we've gotten to know each other. It's a great story. So why don't you tell us a little bit, Stuart, about where you came from? Yeah. So I finished school, um, 18 years old, living in Johannesburg. My stepfather and family had just, or my stepfather just got a job in Durban. So I moved to Durban and with the family as I finished school and I needed a job. My family didn't come from a lot of money. So, um, He was working as an accountant in a scrap metal company. And I got a job as a cutter and I literally got straight into the tools. We needed to earn some money. Um, also paid for some drinking on the weekends. I was playing a lot of rugby. Um, and I. I started there and at the time there was an amalgamation of the 12 biggest scrap metal companies in Southern Africa that all came together to become the reclamation group. So it was very good timing for me because during that, there's a lot of movement in management when that sort of, um, um, how old were you when they made, when they joined, I was 18, literally as I joined a few months before there was a merger. So I started working at reclaim, um, but previously they had been all different names. And, um, um, Luckily for me, I'm the kind of guy that puts his hand up if there's an opportunity and with managers moving all the time and different people moving and because of the merger, uh, I kept on progressing and within, I think it was maybe 10 years. I was already moved to Johannesburg or to Joburg where, where the head office was, and I took over the global trading of the company as well. So did you, you came out of ops to trading? Yeah, so I did. So that's, that's a kind of a big leap. Absolutely. How did they know you knew how to trade? Um, I think I drank a lot with the guys and they really enjoyed spending time with me. So I, I enjoyed meeting people. Lisa, is that true? Do you enjoy spending time with this guy? I mean, come on. I've lost my edge. This is back in the day, John. So I kind of, um, I always loved talking to people and getting on with people. So I was in ops for say six, seven, eight years. And then I moved on to the buy side as a rep or a customer account manager. And then I started buying and I did quite well. I was quite successful at that. And then, um, Michael Movsas, who went on to be the president of Sims North America. He was my CEO at the time, and I got to know him really well. And he asked me to move to Joburg and join the trading team. Within two years, I ran the whole trading team for the company and we have 85 yards there. How many tons is that? How many tons? One and a half to two million a year. So that's a significant, so you're trading minimum of a hundred thousand ton a month. Yeah, but how much was that consumed in Africa versus exported out? That's, that was predominantly exported. Predominantly. Yeah. Probably 80 to 90 percent exported at the time. Feeding what market out of curiosity. You mean which areas, geographies? No, no. Out of Africa, where, what markets were, did you ship into? Oh, we were going to predominantly India, Pakistan, bit of Bangladesh, Um, all of our coppers, or majority of our coppers went to South Korea, so I would go on an annual, um, negotiation with the Korean buyers and negotiate what would work out to be about 60, 000 metric tons per year of copper alone to sell into Korea. I would always go just after Michael Lyons. Now how old are you when you're doing this? Um, 28, 29. Did you like the travel? I loved the travel at the time, absolutely. From South Africa and you start traveling Tell me a story in a country the first time you got to that you went. Wow, this is amazing versus So Korea is amazing I've not been to Korea. Okay, so Seoul is incredible. I love going there say this most incredible hotel Sheila. It's got One of my favorite things is the hot and cold pools. Um, so downstairs when you have a hangover in the morning, um, to go there and have the ice baths and the heated pool, you feel 100 percent straight afterwards. Incredible restaurant. So I loved, um, going to Korea. I used to do it a lot and that's where all of our copper buyers were. So we'd go there quite a bit. Um, I guess where, where did I go where I was probably a bit worried? Um, Home? Back to South Africa? Yeah, I mean, when you're coming from South Africa, nothing's really that scary. You know, you never land and you go, oh, I feel a bit nervous. When you go home, you get a bit of a shock. When you get back to South Africa. Quick story for me. I'm 18 years old. I graduate high school. My dad was from it was from Italy, and he took me around the world. So we went L. A. New York, then New York. We went into the U. K. Then down to Italy, and I used to live in Rome. So all right, everything's awesome, right? Yeah. U. K. School in New York. All right. New Delhi. No Bombay. And then five nights in Calcutta Calcutta will get you right that traffic. How is that for you? I'm 18 years old. Oh from Central, California What's poverty What do you mean? There's 80 million people hanging on a bus riding around town. That's wild and it's 200 degrees with 500 percent humidity And it's raining It was the most eye opening experience for an 18 year old kid. But, you know, obviously you look back. So these are the things. That's why I asked that question. Because I had the, oh my god, moment. But, my dad always traded with the Indians with burlap bags. So in Bakersfield, he would house Mr. Augerwald and Mr. Bindel. They'd come to Bakersfield, they'd stay at our house. I knew them growing up. But I had no idea where they came from. Wow. That was one of my moments that was crazy. Let's go back to your traveling. So, so, so I would, you know, represent the company, come to Israelis, go to a lot of BIRs, um, and really just enjoyed. So we never met at a BIR before Abu Dhabi. We never did. I think we own some Sierra equipment actually at the reclamation group. You could probably go back through your files and find it. Yeah, probably. Yeah. So, all right. So Now you're 28. When do you two guys, I mean, you're the youngest. Did you guys get married at recess? I want to know. We, um, I mean, you, you'll probably talk to her, but. I invited her to my 30th birthday and I had this massive crush on her for like two years. I had no idea. And she was not interested at all. I don't blame her for that. I get it. Oh, thanks John. I started triathlons and I'm not built for triathlons. I trust me. I started triathlon just because she was doing the Ironman and she was getting really super fit. So I was trying to impress her. Like we would go for runs in this group of friends and we had mutual connections and I literally chased her. Like she was super fit. I couldn't catch her up the hills. That's a true story. So, he chased you until you caught him, correct? Well, uh, no, he chased me and chased me and then, I don't know, what, like two years later, we, we had gone to a movie the one night as friends. Actually, no, rewind. I actually invited him as a plus one to an event with me and he said am I going as your date? Or um, am I just going as your friend and I said no just as my friend and he said well If you want a friend get a fucking dog. I didn't swear. You did. You said you want a friend You might need to edit that out. I don't know how this works. No, we're not editing anything. So, um, anyway, he didn't speak to me for a couple months, and I really missed him, because I was like, oh, I really like this guy. But he made you laugh, right? He made me laugh. Alright, so, what are you doing, he's in the recycled materials industry, working his way up, he's traveling, what are you doing during this time? So I was a management consultant at Deloitte and I was helping some Deloitte. Okay. All right. I was helping big blue chip companies who weren't able to build new businesses. You know, with emerging technology, we would help them build those businesses, commercialize those business and, you know, put them out into the wild. So is that mainly in South Africa or did you travel as well? Uh, I traveled a bit, but mostly South Africa. Uh, where did I go? I guess around South Africa and Africa, not really global. Okay. It wasn't, yeah, I didn't tend to take the, the global jobs, because the management consulting kept, moved around a lot, and You didn't want to do that? Yeah, I'm quite a homebody. I like being with my family, with my pets, you know, so Right on. Alright, so now, you're married, you're still working in South Africa, You're in New Zealand now folks. How did we get to New Zealand? And can you share the why? Yeah, um, we are in New Zealand. And it's kind of, there comes a time when you live in South Africa, you have to make a decision. And it's usually, for us it was, when you have your first child. And it's, can you keep this child safe? Do you feel comfortable keeping the child safe and the future opportunities for the child or your child? Or do you stay because, you know, you're able to write your own bonuses, you earn a lot of money and you're in a great position. You've worked your way up in a company, let's say for a very long time, whatever it might be financial reasons. Um, and we sat down one day, um, there was a couple of really bad stories in the news. Um, something had happened to your aunt as well. And we would just go, she said to me, if something happened to us, would we move? As in something happened to our family. And I was like, absolutely. So the question was, well, why do we wait? Shouldn't we be proactive? Lisa, you were the one who kind of saw it as danger, danger. It's time to go. Yeah. And for me, I'm actually, to this day, proudly South African. I love South Africa. South Africa. Beautiful country. The warmest, most loving, kind people. But it was terrifying as a new mom to have a kid there. And so that was a really tough decision for me. Um, you know, to leave there. But I just felt we needed to. So 2018 little story on my side. We went on a safari and I went with George Adams and his family was my family and we ended up in Botswana. But we had to go through Joburg. We arrived at night and we went to this boutique hotel super cool fairly close to the hotel and we're told No to the the teenage that the 20 year old kids that were with us No, you're not going into Joburg downtown. You're not going into the city Okay, whatever The next morning as we leave our hotel, it was a compound. I didn't, you can't see it at night, the high walls, the electric fences on top, the barbed wire, and everything around it. I'm like, and I thought to myself, I go, I don't know how you could live under that. It's pretty standard. I mean, our house had that, and we had an armed guard outside our house 25 hours a day who was there to guard us. But the problem is you have to leave your house at some point and you know, you're just not, not safe. So when you asked about what was my feeling like when I went to other countries, it was coming home that you get the surprise, right? Okay. You know that, see, that's actually really interesting to me. Okay. So wait a minute. What year is this? You're thinking of moving to New Zealand? 2015. Yeah. 2015, alright. Now you got to make this. Who do you know in New Zealand? No one. And we'd never been there. You close your eyes to the dark. Yeah, it's actually a little bit opposite. So my weapon doesn't throw darts and choose in that way. Yeah. I leave the jumping off cliffs to this guy. But, um, I said to him, instead of picking a country and saying, Hey, let's go to this country, let's talk about the kind of life we want to live. And then I found independent. Sort of measures of the things that were important to us and we waited them and rank them at the top. Well, I did She sits in the front row And at the top of the spreadsheet was new zealand, so if those were the things what was one two and three Um was new zealand canada. I don't remember three, but whatever three was Three was trailing quite a bit behind too. So there were really only two options Um, yeah, and what did america rank? Yeah I don't think it was. I'm really curious. Yeah, it was definitely not high up on the list, um, based on the life we were looking for. I had the best opportunity, actually, in America. You did, yeah. Better than anywhere else. So my good friend is Michael Movsas, who was the president of Sims North America. Right, right. He was the CEO of my company in South Africa who promoted me into my role as trader. He moved over to America. So when we were leaving, Michael was very positive and he please come and I, you know, choose the state. Where do you want to be? And we'd love to have you as a part of the group in North America. And, um, obviously Lisa had her analysis going on and one night she turns around to me and she says, um, she says, everything is landing on New Zealand and this is how you'll get to know me. I just said, I love rugby. It's good. Wait a minute. We're gonna step back for a second. South Africa is a rugby, you know, a world powerhouse, New Zealand, the blacks. I mean, it's, it's, it seems that's the world cup final, although England was in it this, uh, this last time, right? No, it was who was in the finals, South Africa, New Zealand. Okay. So that England lost in the semis. That's correct. Okay. I kind of follow it just because I had a good friend who was really good and played it in America, but So you're like, alright, yeah. So, who do you root for? I root for the Springboks still, South Africa. No, no, no. Okay, you still, when it goes to the World Cup time, you still root for your South Africans. And my kids are all black supporters, so they support the New Zealand team, and I support the South African team. So the World Cup final was fun. In fact, when South Africa won, my son literally cried. He was so sad. And of course, Stuart was like, Hey, we won. My son was 20 years old. He was at the Super Bowl last year. And his Philadelphia Eagles lost in the last second. When I called him, he was crying. Intense cut up. Yeah. So, you know when you're that passionate about something that's, uh, absolutely. Alright. So we, we, we got Rugby, Lisa's Analytical Mind, New Zealand. Uh, okay. We, we gotta have, you gotta make a living. Yeah, I know you probably saved up your money. You had one kid at the time too. Yeah, one kid. One, one. All right. Walk me through this because this is an interesting transition. I mean, it takes courage to do this. Big courage. You're going from what you know, the job. Did you get a job with Deloitte? No, I didn't. I knew I was going to have to settle the family in. And I had helped build what's called the Greenhouse at Deloitte, which is an innovation hub. And so there was a role going at the university building an innovation hub and makerspace at the University of Auckland. And I thought, well, that's really cool. I've got background in that. That transition is quite neat. There's not heaps of people out there who have done that kind of thing. So I thought work at the uni, it's very family oriented, not the kind of stress and travel of management consulting. And so, you know, as the mom, um, with Stuart and my other child, so the two kids, Um, I thought I'd have the, the head space. Thank God you don't have to change his diapers, right? Mostly, yeah. All right. All right. So, so did you go to work right away? Who got the job? Oh, so I landed on the Wednesday and my first day at work was Friday. So, and I got held back in South Africa for an extra medical test for like cholesterol or whatever. So they held me back last minute. So she spent six weeks in a new country. We had never visited with a under one year old child starting a new job immediately. without a car. So she was taking public transport to get around. We had booked an Airbnb, which is kind of like on the wrong side, not the wrong side of the tracks, but the wrong side of where you would be compared to the kindergarten. We had a child on too. She was taking a bus from the universe, from her apartment in the morning, about a 45 minute drive, dropping off the kid, 45 minute back to work, coming back to fetch a kid. And this is all while I was sitting in South Africa. She thinks I was having a lot of fun, but I promise I wasn't. What's that like? What was that like? Seriously, when you look back at that now. Yeah. What's that like? What year is this? 2015. 2016 now. 2016, yeah. What's that like? So it was really tough. It was, but I just thought to myself, you know, like hard choices, easy life. We made a hard choice and now we've just got to follow through and there were days where our phones stood and I said, This is really hard. I'm exhausted. I don't know what's going on, like where to find things, even just like in the supermarket aisle, you know? How hard was the New Zealand Act? Oh, that was fine. Was it easy to understand? I still have trouble understanding you guys. Yeah, I struggle with accents actually. So I have to like, pay a lot of attention and I need to see their lips as well sometimes, even to this day. Okay, so, you're back in Johannesburg. Yeah. You've got to be dying with your wife and daughter or son? Son. Son. In a foreign land. Yeah. Alright. Walk me through you getting out and what did you get into? How did you get back into our industry? Yeah, and New Zealand so I came over six weeks later Was able to arrange my visa and shot over there. Lisa was having a very hard time and doing it all by herself So I came in and I told me if I'm not mistaken, this is verbatim Well put on your big girl panties and put one foot in front of the other darling It's kind of like just before you judge me right unfairly You're on the phone in Johannesburg and your wife is like, I've left the groceries on the corner of the street. True story. Because the Uber won't let me in the car with my one year old child because that doesn't have a car seat. It's raining. I have to walk however many miles home and I've just done a grocery shop for the first time in the grocery store. I'm leaving all the things. I cannot do this. I don't know what there's no way. So I said, put on your big girl panties, put your left foot in front of your right foot and move forward. There was no other option. What else was I meant to say, John? What was that? Oh, I'm coming now. I couldn't go there to help. Interesting. Did you give him a hug when you saw him or did you punch him? I want to know. What did you do? It was a gut punch. It was like all my fault. So I came, so I got to New Zealand. Okay, but go on. So I got to New Zealand. We're, we're, we're, we're. Yeah. You're still in South Africa. You're, you're going into Auckland. Yeah. Get to Auckland. No job. No job. No, no interviews. Luckily in a position that we don't need to rush into it. My plan is, I've been doing scrap now, metal recycling for, I think it was 18. I see you're learning. I'm learning. I'll get there. 18, 19 years. So my plan is to, um, to, um. Go into sports management because I'm gonna have a break from metal recycling So I'm like I'm gonna become the president of the all blacks or the president of because I'm pretty ambitious in that way Like I'm not just gonna get into management. I'm gonna run the country's rugby like eventually so I kind of like look around and Like pedal boarding which I wasn't good at like Santa pedal boarding a few days doing CrossFit because I used to do that a lot In the ladies classes, because at 10am I got nothing else to do. So I joined the moms crossfit class. Like, this is what I was doing all day. Lisa would come up, she's like, Why haven't you done the washing? I'm like, you know how busy I was? I'd crossfit at 10 with the moms. Then they wanted to go for coffee. And then like, acai bowls. And it was Janice's birthday, we missed it two weeks ago. You had to throw axes. And then sometimes with a couple of the guys we went like axe throwing things in the day. Like we were busy. You learned axe throwing so she wouldn't learn axe throwing. Because you'd be done. It was self defense. So kind of, um, Sims are the biggest in New Zealand substantially. Um, I spoke to John Gleit. What happened was the general manager of New Zealand. I saw John Gleit here. Yeah, I saw. He was here the day. Um, so the general manager unfortunately had cancer. I think it was the fourth time he was having his fourth operation in New Zealand. Unfortunately, he passed away a few years later. So he was having that. And, um, I knew the guys at Sims. I knew their trading office quite well, cause we did a lot of work together. Um, went to the BIRs and always would have drinks together. So they had notified, or John knew that I was living in New Zealand. So I got hired on the Friday to come there as kind of like to bring them some depth while he was having another operation. Got hired on Friday to start on Monday. I don't recommend anybody does that. Not for yourself, but you probably want to give the team some notice that there's a new guy coming in to like be involved in the management team. Started on the Monday. Um, and then after about three or four months, um, Angus, who was fantastic guy came back and I was sitting around and I'm not somebody to sit around. I had run 85 yards, but like hands on with 4, 200 people. And now I was kind of like, a reserve and I was helping like the transport division a little bit and like wherever I could get my hands. So they just threw you, they knew they could. Your experience gave you the in road. Yes. How long did it take for them to realize you knew what you were doing and that you're just not gonna be back? probably took for me to leave for them to realize, to be honest. Remember, they're, they're based in Australia. I'm in New Zealand. There was no, I was at the top management. So there's nobody else I'm reporting to. There's, there's an Australian head office. And, um, and then I decided exactly after a year, it was on the same day I was hired. I just said, you know, it's been great. I wasn't going to move to Australia. There were opportunities, maybe in Australia. We had chosen New Zealand, as you heard. So we decided to, um, I decided that I would leave and look for another opportunity. And, you know, I kind of saw that the metal recycling industry, um, wasn't necessarily serviced well enough in New Zealand. The margins were really big and they, I guess the market wasn't incentivized enough, but the prices weren't high enough, trying to say it in the best way possible. So I decided that I, well, I thought there was a great opportunity to set up a metal recycling company to take on SIMS in New Zealand. However, my lovely weapon on my right said, before you spending any of our money, I'm going to do a deep dive into the industry, which she had never done before. So you, so, okay, hold on. Yeah. Your analytic skills are now put to test to an industry you only knew of because he worked it, but now you're, you're diving into it. Diving into it. How much time. When you're doing this is it during a day is this a nighttime thing where you're staying up to 2 a. m.? Or is this? How's it go? Tell me about this. I want to learn. I want to hear this story. So be honest. I'm thankful sleep needs so I can have five hours sleep at night and I'm good. So I'd work my day job and I'd come home at night and I would get to work on, you know, doing my research first, taking the research, drawing insights and, you know, putting together what is the opportunity here? How big is it? What are the gaps? You know, what is our angle? And yeah, so probably took me about 10 weeks to do that deep dive. And I came to him and I said, Wow, this is an amazing opportunity. There's a huge opportunity here. Okay. So Stewart's huge opportunity, but you're going to start it on your own now. But John, she, this is what I say. She does it. She's not honest. She came to me with a 76 page business plan. It's a true story. I can show you it. Like, this is like, what are you doing all night? I'm just working on the market. I'm working out the industry. Can you answer the following questions? And like, I'm like, I don't know. I go to bed and like, she's up all night for like 10 weeks or whatever. And then at the end, I just get this massive dunk on the desk and here it is. Here's the opportunity. This is how we're going to do it. Here's the branding ideas. This is how we're going to differentiate ourselves from the rest of the market, which is how we really had a major impact with social media and what gave us the idea of podcasts and things like that. But at that stage, it was like, this is what the market isn't doing. Things that you've realized, like there's no real marketing. We're not going to the customers. And this is how we're going to do it. I had a playbook like it was a phenomenon. And so now you set out on your own. So now. You still stayed with Deloitte at this time? Yeah, so I was back at Deloitte now. Yeah, you're back at Deloitte. Stuart says, Alright, I've got all these years of experience under my belt. You've done the research. You guys create your plan. Yeah. Go. So we find a, a really small, the plan is to prove the concept first, which is going to be a lot of customer service, customer focus, A lot of marketing and a lot of the brand we're gonna have to see how much of a what was the name of your? Endless like never ending. Okay. You got it endless So in fact, the beast change was endless metals and then we went into other ways to became endless so the idea was I Would look for a small would be in those days Well inside we were called a bucket shop like a small little feed yard and we found one just down the road from my house And that was run by a husband and a wife And they were looking to get out. They did next to no volume. And we said, well, this would be a great opportunity. So we invested some money and we bought their business from them. And what year is this? Street Peddlers. 2019 I think. No, no, 2018. Oh, 2018. Yeah, you're right. You show up in 2016. Now we're two years. Oh no, it must be, yeah, because I spent a full year at Sims. So it's probably the end of 2017. Okay, so we're kicking off 18. Yeah, King of 18, Stewart Kagan's Endless Medals. Yeah, so I, so I, it's just me. So I'm now offloading peddlers, right, they're coming in with their trucks, they're coming in with their vehicles, they're coming, walking in on their bikes, whatever it is. And I'm doing this by myself. And then you can explain how you got involved. Yeah, so I just realized Stu's on the tools all day. I was like, you know, he hired a person here and I was like, what's happening with payroll? Can I please see your standard operating procedures? Where's your marketing strategy? What are your content pillars? Um, where's the marketing budget? All these questions to which he was like, I'm tired. Okay. And I was like, and by the way, your shoes are dirty. Can you take them off for me? And so I was just really pissing him off with all these questions and he was pissing he wasn't doing all the things in the plan. So we had this plan of where we were going, right? So did you offer her a job? Yeah, she took a job. I don't know if, uh, I was just like, I've got to come there for a couple months. and sort stuff out. I'm going to put in processes, I'm going to put in systems, I'm going to create automations for you, I'm going to get the brand humming, your marketing in motion, and then I'm going to go off and go into start up land. And we got busy, John. So you're the brute, she's the brains. We'll always be like that, John. Nothing's ever going to change. Well this is, okay, so, all right, you're starting, you're growing. Yeah. Did she come full time? Yeah. When? When did you say? I think you were like a month in. Maybe three. Three? Yeah, yeah. Probably like three months in. Yeah. I was tired. Um, trying to get to the stuff at night. The other stuff. The finances were fine for me to run because I'd done it for like 85 different yards. So that was fine. I could do that on a Sunday. But, you know, obviously work every single Saturday as well. But because I had, let's go back a second, because, and this is really good for people to understand, because I had done it at 18 and 20 years old, I'd done it with my hands. Very easy for me to jump back in. Like it's different to finding a role in the executive team and learning about the recycling industry. And then somebody says, all right, go start a scrap yard. Go start a metal recycling. Well, I wouldn't know what to do. I knew the commodities. I knew how best to sell it. I knew what to do with it. I knew how to upgrade and you had to treat customers. So Lisa had me testing a whole lot of different things. So for example, we'd run a week and we'd go super high prices. And that was it, that was our focus. Getting people fast, get them in and out as quick as possible. Then the next week, should we go, let's give them free coffee, drop the prices a little bit, and be more happy. And be smiling. All of a sudden we'd be pumping, much busier. People were coming in more, people would love us. Should set up a review system and we would see what reviews were we getting if we did these different forms of testing. Then all of a sudden it was like, giving free lollies away, you're giving chocolates, and all these things we did, all of a sudden the price wasn't actually that important. People enjoyed coming back to talk to me. People enjoyed coming and we treated them nicely. Give them a cap. Run a, you know, run a prize. Whatever it is, a competition. So all this testing we did and while we were doing, we were getting really busy. We ended up with, in this tiny yard, it was me and three guys in the yard. You know, a forklift and just constantly, we were getting trucks collecting every single day. Whereas previously, they probably had a truck. If they were lucky, a week we were getting two to three collections selling to Sims at the time. And what happened after that? Do you want me to jump into the next stage? Well, I'm just loving this story because, see, that's where marketing is coming in in a completely unconventional way in our industry doing the little things you're doing. Okay, so let's kind of fast forward to the growth. Yeah, yeah. And So I think it's really cool if you, if you want to see our brand, like what Lisa created, she did this full analysis on all the brands in the New Zealand market. And she looked at how we could differentiate ourselves. And we were fresh. We had our color was teal with a smiley face. We use the recycle sign. Um, what's it called? A Mobius strip. Um, which is like a sideways eight as the eyes with a smiley face underneath. And that was our guy. His name was Mo similar to how we like have buddy like the dog, um, in the new company. So we had this fresh brand that we sent out and people were absolutely loving it. So let's fast forward. We get really, really busy. I find this incredible property in the the busiest area of Auckland. It's the place you want to be. I find this on the main road and I'm like, we need this. I've been looking for a while. I'm the kind of guy jump off a cliff and build the airplane on the way down. So I'm like, I'm constantly looking for the right side. I know that the actual edge we have to grow and be the size we want it to be. was for me to export directly. Right. Let's go back. I was in Korea. I have those relationships. I can sell directly, but in my tiny little yard, I don't have a facility to do that. Right. So I needed something. You could do container loads and that sick set of bulk. Well, yeah. So, well, no, I couldn't. It was smaller than this black carpet. When we say it was a bucket shop, I think we had a bailer. Tiny. It's all on the roof. It's a tiny little drive through. You come drop off. That's how it started. So then I find a really good size yard and I'm like this now I can put equipment in so Literally on the spot without speaking to anybody I speak to this agent. I said i'll take it I go back to Lisa. I'm like we've just signed a lease for five years And it is the most expensive thing we've ever done. Like, this is crazy. She's like, we have done no analysis. Who cooks between you two? Who cooks between you two? I cook. He cooks. He's a great cook. Oh, that's the only reason you got dinner that night. Exactly. So I'm like, we're going to jump off. We're going to jump off the cliff. We're going to build this airplane. But I know I absolutely need it. Interestingly enough, the news of me finding that site was out within a day, the new general manager of Sims reached out to me. for a job. The non ferrous manager from Sims reached out for me for a job. I ended up hiring the majority of the Sims management team. Really, they wanted to Hold on, hold on. Yes. I'm going to go to Miss Analytics over here. Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Big Lees, you're hiring big time people, and you're looking at this, and you're making your analysis, and you are Stew? You're a nut or this is brilliant. What are you doing? Well, the only thing that helped me steep at night was we had bolts up. You don't sleep. You already admitted you don't sleep. The thing that really gave me comfort is we had both a following and an audience and there were a lot of People out there, um, talking about us in the market saying, Hey, these guys pay top prices. They're friendly. They're helpful. They're explaining to us how to upgrade our material, get more for it. And I knew that we had an audience and I actually suggested to Stu, we should put our prices out there. And Stu said to me, are you nuts? If we are pricing, buying prices to the market. I said, we should put that on social media. Whoa. No, you don't do that. Because if we tell people what we're paying. Then the guy next door is going to know and he's going to go and beat my prize. So this is what she said. I just said to him, who are they going to tell love? They're not on social media. They don't have an audience who's engaged and who's watching and looking what you're saying, who they're going to tell. How are you using Facebook at the time? Facebook. Okay. All right. So you're hiring these people. Now we, we had this big site. I've got photos of seeing the first truckload ever tip there. Very exciting. Um, and within three months, we had too much material on the floor. The best problem to happen to you, right? Equipment hadn't arrived in time, but we were getting flooded. Everybody was supplying us. We took from the night and we knew kind of the information because of the management team we had hired. We had over 50 percent of the non ferrous market of Auckland within a year and a half. 50%. That's more than half of the non ferrous market in the whole of Auckland coming into us. But one of the major things that we did, and it's really good for people to understand, is what Lisa touched on, which was people knew, or believed, we don't have to say which one, that we paid top prices. Because it was in everything we sent out there. So all of our marketing was friendly faces, great brand, great people to deal with, and top prices. And it was a part of our pittance. Top prices to you? Well no, it was, it was factually the top price. It was. Okay, so. Yeah. Okay. We're growing. We're growing. We're growing. We're growing. Yeah. What year are we really getting big now? 2020. Oh, yeah. All right. So what now what's going on? So the problem here is what I needed in order to compete with the biggest in the world was trade finance. I didn't have the deep enough pockets to buy now pay cash. and wait for material to arrive in, for example, Korea to get paid. But if you want to have the best price, you want to compete with the biggest, that's what you need. You sell to the traders, you're giving away margin, you can't necessarily compete. So we lined up with a trade finance company who had all of our invoices and stock as their security. Sure. COVID hit. I don't know if you know what happened in New Zealand, but New Zealand, we were seriously locked out. Yeah. You guys militantly locked down. Great word. So, we had, um, six weeks at a time, we weren't allowed to leave our house. And when I say that, I don't mean like going to the playground, I mean you couldn't leave your house. You weren't allowed to go for a walk around the block. Right. I remember this. And New Zealand, if you know much about New Zealand, you know that unemployment is tiny. So you had to carry on paying, and you wanted to, pay your team. fully the whole period, right? There was a period, there was a small amount given by the government and there was some deduction that you could do, but basically you needed to pay people during that period. Now, no income coming in. We've shut the yard. We've got the least we're still paying for, right? Cause that we didn't get any holidays on that. So this was six weeks at a time. And I think it was maybe six months apart. We shut down for six weeks, then shut down for two weeks, then shut down with like the government would just say, remember one case in the country, shut the country down. Let's not hop on New Zealand politics, but that's what happened. So what happened was we had to borrow money unsecured for the first time ever in the history of the company. We had never had an overdraft before. We borrowed money to be able to pay these people, did a deal with the financier, which allowed them if there was any unsecured to be able to actually take the company from us because it was unsecured. That was their security at the time. Thinking at the time, I was thinking at the time that, um, Not really a biggie. They can't run this company without me and Lisa. We literally run it. They're based in South Africa. What are they going to do? Fast forward opportunity comes to sell the company, really big numbers thrown around. Um, and they went and took the company from us. So I don't know where a year and a half ago, I think it is now. Um, they arrived in New Zealand and said, here's a legal letter. It's now our company. Um, and it's still carrying on now. They have a CEO in place there and no one really would scrap it's not much scrap experience. But, um, so we got Sent our own way. Alright, hold on. Heartbreaking is the word that comes to my mind. At the time, absolutely. Yeah, it was really traumatic at the time. Lisa had built a baby, right? Right. The brand more than anything. Now how many kids do you have? Two. Now you have two and all this is gone. You gotta feed those kids, right? Absolutely. I mean, what the hell? Now what? What the hell, Lisa? So, yeah, so, I've just got a really deep amount of faith. And I just felt we first got to build our future and then we can deal with the past. We can't afford to be stuck here. You know, I could call, crawl up into the fetal position in the corner and cry and, and break, break down. But at the end of the day, I knew nobody was coming. Nobody was coming. And so we picked ourselves up and we just said, I put on my big girl panties left, right, left, right. And we were like, okay, this is really shitty. This is not cool. It's unjust. It's unfair. It's there's so much wrong with this, but what is in our control right now? What's in our control is what lays ahead. And so we had been, you know, sitting on this idea of Buddy, which was a bit of a pipe dream in a way, because it was much bigger than the mandate that Endless was designed to do. And, you know, things were spinning in my mind, and we definitely lost a lot of confidence at that point in time. Well, Lisa had been having a go at me for a long time. I controlled the trading, it was my strength. So, to trade that sort of volume, I was WhatsAppping people around the world, Every hour of the day, every minute of the day, you know, when you want the best price, you've got to offer to maybe five people as a minimum, each commodity. When you're selling five grades per day, you're having almost 25 WhatsApp conversations and the time zones are all different. So I'm at the dinner table having a go, um, at in bed, Lisa gives me a little nudge, like, how are you feeling tonight? And I'm like, shh, busy. You know, I'm talking to so and so from Pakistan and, um, true story. And, um, anyway, so. Kind of like always, Anissa kept going like, you guys are dinosaurs. Like she'd say to me, what is wrong with you? There's so much wrong with the way I was trading and the way that the industry. And I was like, there's nothing you can do. She said, I will build something. Like, remember her background is disruptive tech. She built the first digital bank in Africa in the emerging markets. So she's like, we need to change it. And I was like, we don't have time to change this. We're building an empire with endless metals. Like we're going to go into waste and we do it until we weren't anymore. And I'm like. You know, a week later, it's like, go build. Well, you made a post the other day about the investment into Bundy. So, you are the, you do, you build the programming of it? Who builds it? So, I'm not a developer. I'm more of a product person. So, having the vision of what this product is going to do, what it's going to look like. And you are to this, then? To the, I'm, I'm the domain, I have the domain experience. Okay. So, I have assisted with what they need to build. How long does it take to develop Buddy? Because I'm going to get into Buddy. I want you to tell us what Buddy is. How's it working? Yes, you're just getting off. You've been here in the U. S. You get to go sit down with Alter. You know, it's not a secret. You put it out there, right? So tell us about it. Tell us about Buddy now. You're picking yourself up off the ground. So I actually lost a bit of confidence and I thought, you know what? I'm maybe not such a good entrepreneur. I'm just going to go get a job. Right. And so I got an entrepreneur again, Drop in. Yeah, that's like aluminium versus aluminum. Well, Google aluminium is correct. I was with an American the other day. I'm sorry. I just love that. I'm like, wow. On interesting way to say entrepreneur. So I was like, maybe my shoulders aren't broad enough for this. I'm going to get a job in a startup and, and that's what I'm going to do. But really quickly, I realized that I can't stay in my own lane. And I've got big visions and big goals and big dreams and it doesn't really work when you're in another company, right? And so it was a Friday afternoon. I was leaving work saying goodbye to all my work buddies Really happy on you know, most levels in what I was doing and that weekend I just had this moment where I was like, I want to go bold right? And so I phoned my mom and my mom and dad, they weren't entrepreneurs, but they, they're pretty conservative people. And I phoned my mom and I said, look, mom, I know, you know, we, we, we lost a bunch with endless and um, you know, from a risk profile perspective, I probably shouldn't be doing this, but I'm thinking about quitting my job and building this business. And my mom said, you got to do it. So I thought okay, maybe she's, I don't know, had a weird kind of day and she's just, you know, feeling like go with it. So let me phone my dad, right? So I phone my dad and he says, Lisa, you've got to be courageous, do this. So I was like, okay, maybe, you know, he's, I don't know, also just Some weird energy in the air and I phoned my friend We've been friends since we were six and I told her right and she was like no question in my mind Put your job go do this. And so on Sunday night, I went to Stuart and I said to him love I'm thinking about building, you know, this business. You were lost love. Yeah, you were lost You know, the family's also relying on me here What do you think I should do? And he said, I think you should do it. And I said, love, if nobody's going to stop me, I'm going to walk into the CEO's office on Monday morning and I'm going to quit my job. And he's like, yeah, you should do that. And so that's what I did. And, um, liberating, yeah, liberating. And also listen, it wasn't an unhappy time. I love my team and the work was interesting. It's just a different ball game, right. And I'm wired in a different way. And so, yeah, I quit my job that Monday, four weeks later, um, full time on buddy, just jumping off that cliff and yeah, building, building, building. Okay. So buddies is a trading platform. Yeah. You launched it not too long ago, right now. So we did a demo two hours ago, live inside the expo hall for the first time, live demo to everybody officially launched first trades will be done on the 1st of May. Cause we set up profiles and we onboard everybody. Um, it's a closed ecosystem. So it's invite only pretty exclusive. Um, if you, if you're a part of it, you are able to sell to some of the biggest buyers in the world. We spoke about my history. So therefore I've got relationship with a lot of really good buyers. We have 50 buyers from 19 countries from around the world and it covers all non ferrous and ferrous grades. And we expect that every time you put up a listing for sale, we should get between five to 10 offers each time. But Lisa did 150 market validation interviews with a lot of people that might even be listening to this now. And what she wanted to be careful of was not building a product for Stewart. But actually for building it for the global industry. And so you got perspectives from, from everybody. And what we found was it wasn't purely, well, people didn't even realize that WhatsApp was an issue because it's a hell of a lot better than only email. And it's even better than Telex, like Michael Lyons was telling us about on the podcast. So everybody thought that we were always progressing. But what we realized, well, where the struggle is, often it's the flow of information and it's the amount of emails. So are you, are, are, is the people using the system or Paying a commission or paying a fee. So it's free to sell. So metal recyclers don't pay a cent. So there's that great saying that the man with the metal is king. So in my mind. Why do, why do we pay the brokerage fee? Why do we pay the commission? If, if the recyclers, the melters need it so badly, and you've got an agent in between, they should pay the commission. So the way that we set it up was, it's absolutely free. There's no subscription. There's no onboarding fee. There's no commission. The payment is made by the buyer if they buy something on the platform, and they only pay us a half a percent commission. So it's a really small amount. So you monetize it by the half percent. Yeah, yeah. So they then, some commodities, so the copper commodity is actually a quarter of a percent because we don't need to make a huge amount per trade. What we want is just how our industry works. We want to do a lot of volume. So you had your demonstration, so that's why you text me. See, I was in the middle of, I didn't know what that was when you text me. Yeah. And I wish I, but it's, so we launched today. So wait, why didn't we start our whole podcast and we're, we're just talking about it. We're having a conversation. This is exciting news guys. So, uh, yeah, so this is actually the launch right here live. You're the first to put it out. We're editing this and this is getting out next week. Thank you, John. Thanks. No, this is what, you know, look, you know, Brett, we talk about relationships, right? And here we are, we're. We just met in October in person and we've been, I was on your podcast, uh, you're here now on my podcast and we're traveling in the circle of the same people. People who we trust, that you know when they say they're going to do something, they're going to do it. So I want this to be a huge success for you guys. I want you guys to kill it. I do. I really, I mean, just because this has been so interesting, so fun. And it's funny that the, the, the, the brains and the brawn, if you will, kind of push pull that you guys have, but it's, it's crazy. You have a gift on these analytical stuff that I'm like, uh, what should we do? Is the name Sierra, the red, or are you going to tell me I need to change? I seriously want to know. I really do. You got my time anytime, John. So, so no, the point is, is. This is a great story. So drew next week, this podcast is going out because I think Stuart and Lisa, this is a great opportunity. More people. And we, and if everybody starts sharing it, if all our friends, if we can get Michael Goldstein to share it and all our friends who we already know, share the post, share the podcast, maybe be able to build some more minimum thing. We'd love that. I don't have my hand up. Yeah. You know, I, I guess. You know, my dad, I watched my father. This is important. I always wonder, you just put people together. You take no commission, put people in here. And then later I would understand why. Because I am that guy. I don't want the money. I want to see success because that breeds better friendships. It breeds this type of conversation. I don't want anything. If it blows up, hey, buy me a beer. Well, I'm on a scotch. Okay, I'll be on it. Buy me a McAllen 18, okay? Alright, you okay with that? No, this is so great. What a great story. Now, how old are we? You all can't ask a woman who I'm, I'm 43 and she's three years younger than me. I can't do math. I failed math. What an exciting life in such a short period. This experiences that you've just told me about. This is a lifetime. Of course, that's all you have, but I'm 62. I've not gone through this. Okay. Um, you know, Brett put, uh, a post out about pressure the other day. And, uh. You know, my dad always said, I'm the quarterback and I'm throwing you the ball. If you don't catch it, run with it. It's your fault. Well, here's the problem. There's no more pressure. I played American football, you know, not your football and the hardest pass to catch was the one you were all alone because that ball's in the air. You're thinking about, but when you had a defender on you and the, here it is, and you're diving for it. Never thought about it. I knew how to do it. I was good at it. Yeah, I was really good at it. But that ball alone in the air was the scariest one. I hear you. And that's what I posted because to me that was where the real pressure is. And now that you've gone through all of it, there's no pressure here. You're gonna find it. The point is, is you've, you've had the ups and you've had the downs. Yeah, and it's made us better for it. Really. We're so resilient. Like it's the best thing that happened to us That's the crazy thing like the downs with the I had a friend. I won't go nameless Had a situation where they had a fire And it shut down one of this important thing that they did and I won't tell what it is But he says best thing that ever happened to him because he took his sons and says what's next boys But they were super successful Had a lot of backup, if you will, but they were able to recreate, build, grow from a really bad situation. You're doing the same thing. It's something we couldn't do when we were at Endless, right? We couldn't do it because we were stuck in there. So Lisa wanted to fly. I needed to use, I mean, to be able to use her expertise and stuck where we were, we didn't have that ability. And now we were able to actually, you know, let her grow. And I think we're pretty stoic people and, and we're stoic stoic. Yeah. You know, my definition of stoke is somebody. No. Yeah, well, that's my definition. Well, see, you're not speaking English. So my English dictionary is different than yours. So stoicism, it's kind of being even kill because, you know, life's going to throw things at you. And so we're really of the belief, like, obstacles are detours in the right direction. And, you know, there's no such thing as a right choice and a wrong choice. You make a decision and you make it right. And sometimes those decisions are made for you. And you just You make it the right path, you know? This is an original John Sacco saying, Regrets are for those who forgot what their options were. Meaning, you have to make a decision. And you don't have the options in front of you. So you can only make the decision based on what options you had in front of you. Hindsight, if there were other options later, Well, you only can make that decision based on what you had in front of you. Yep, absolutely. Wow, what a great story. Now, how long have you guys been married? I think 11 years now? Do you know how long he's been married? 11, 12 maybe? Oh wow, you don't remember? Oh my goodness. I think it's 12. It's been very forgetful for poor Lisa, okay? But you know what? Listen. I'm so excited for the two of you. This story has been fun. What a great podcast. I have no notes. This is just, this is real conversation and something I super enjoy because I think that this is what I love doing. Okay. I get fired up in this type of situation because this is a great story. So I want to wish the both of you the God's. Incredible success. You know, the best form of revenge is massive success, right? Exactly, exactly right. A little bit of that in the back of your head. Yeah, come on, we're guys, we know that. Yeah, for sure. The drive, that's what keeps, gets you up in the morning. Yeah, for sure. And we're actually moving the family to Boulder. In the next few months. Boulder, Colorado. You're moving to America? Yeah, so we gotta learn to speak the language first. But as soon as we do, uh, we're moving to Boulder, Colorado. Aluminum? Aluminum? Yeah, yeah. Well, so when were you gonna tell me this, Mr. New Zealand? We're launching, we're launching a lot here today. Well, it's a temp, it's a temporary move. It's temporary. Um, I say a year. Why Boulder? She says six months and her dad says forever. Um Why Boulder? So, the Denver airport, Is a great hub for me to be able to travel. We've got, it's like, um, never skied in our lives, but our son likes snowboarding. Okay. You like cold weather. We used to it from New Zealand, I guess. We'll be okay. All right. All right. But it's, um, it's also a tech hub as well. So there's a lot of people in the tech world there, right? I know. Listen, Denver's great airport. I mean, yeah, we just flew in and out of there. I normally do DFW or my own plane, if you will, but, Denver's a great airport. We went through it. It's a really cool airport. Very efficient. You know what, John? Like, the other day I posted something that my child said to me while I was traveling. Because I've been in the U. S. a lot the last few months. And he said to me, um, and I've been away for the first time for him for maybe two or three months. And he said, Dad, if you never come back, please will you at least come back for my birthday parties? That's literally what, um, started the process of us saying, okay. This isn't good enough. This isn't what we want for our kids. How can we, how can we do that? It hurts me. Yeah. Because yes, but I'm so grateful. He said it at four years old and he said it only after two months of me starting to travel. So we were going to stay in New Zealand and I was going to come. We launched in the States. So I was going to be traveling here and getting back when I could. Now we've just gone. So this is not a conversation the next day. We're like, well, what do we need to be there for? We're a tech company. We can be anywhere. Let's be closer to our customers. So we spoke to a friend in Boulder. And he's like, yeah, he'll help set us up. Why not? Bakersfield, California, where we're from. I could cook you pizzas. We'll be visiting. That's my wife could cook too. Listen, Monica. But I'm so thrilled for you guys right now. I it's, it was so genuine to feel good about this and Godspeed you too. Thank you for coming. What a great story. This is going to be huge. This podcast, because this is a great story. It went a little longer than my 30 minutes, but there was no way I was stopping it. This story had to be told. It's a phenomenal story. Now, when are your parents coming? Your parents still alive? Yeah. Um, are they in South Africa as well? South Africa? Yeah. So when they all coming to visit your parents? When's their My mom's here. She's great. She's, she's here in America now? No, no, no. She's sorry. Here is in New Zealand. She's flown from South Africa to New Zealand to give us the opportunity to come here and leave the kids behind. Um, you know, that they're in, we have family in New Zealand, so no family. We know somebody to look after the kids. You guys are like Christopher, Mr. and Mrs. Christopher Columbus. So I got a cute joke about Christopher Columbus. It's here. I probably shouldn't say it, but I'm going to say it because it's funny. So, Christopher Columbus is sailing across the Atlantic, right? And the crew's going crazy. It's about a mutiny. And they say, when are we going to see land? When are we going to see land? I need to see land. So Christopher Columbus looked at this deck hand. hauled off and kicked him right between the legs and looked at him and says, how do you like them two acres? You're allowed to do it. It's your podcast. Yeah, it's my podcast. What the hell? Yeah. All right. You too. God bless you. Godspeed again. I'm so grateful to spend this time to hear this story that can enhance my life. Knowing what you guys have went through and nothing's impossible. It's just a state of mind. Pick yourself up. 100%. Awesome. Thanks, John. Thank you. Thanks for having us, John. Let's look at the camera, and we're going to say that's another episode of Pile of Scrap. Pile of Crap. There was a rebrand. There was a rebrand. Oh, that's right. Hold on, hold on. We were told we have to rebrand. We have to drop the S from our A, because scrap's no good, so we're Pile of Crap. And Born Crappy. And Born Crappy. Born Crappy. Yeah. There it is. It's another episode of Pile of Crap. We should change our names to that. Although, Brett, today, I'm not changing. I get it. But I think it'd be pretty funny. It'd be damn good. How about Offshoot? You go first. No! You're the, you're the, you're the explorers. Oh, it's true. Alright, man. You guys, great. That's it for this amazing episode of Pile of Scrap. That's it. Wow. Thanks, John. This has been a Sierra International Machinery original audio series. Thanks for listening. Please share this podcast and make sure to subscribe.