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Born Scrappy
The go-to podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders
Born Scrappy
S2E7: How to up your sustainability game with ISRI President Robin Weiner
In today's special sustainability masterclass, I interview Robin Wiener.
Robin is the president of ISRI and has been in the industry for 34 years, so she’s seen it all. Together with ISRI and other industry players, Robin is a driving force shaping the sustainability narrative and practices for the recycled materials industry. There's no one more equipped to have this conversation with than Robin.
In today’s episode we talk about:
- Documenting sustainability
- Carbon emissions tracking
- What we can do today
- ISRI 2024 Expo
- And so much more!
WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?
25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...
I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.
I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).
I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.
Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.
COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN
Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's special sustainability masterclass, I interview Robin Wiener. Robin is the president of ISRI, soon to be rebranded to who knows what. She has her BSc in chemical engineering as well as a law degree. There's no one more equipped to have this conversation with than Robin. In today's episode, we talk about what we can do today, documenting sustainability, carbon emission tracking, the ISRI 2024 Expo in Vegas, and so much more. So let's get started and hear from Robin, but first intro. Hi, Robin. Welcome to Born Scrappy. How are you? Good. How are you? It's, I really appreciate being on your podcast. This is pretty exciting for me. Yeah. Look, I've been trying to get you on for a while, so I'm excited to have you. Um, this is the new year and this is now in season two and this will be our first masterclass. So I can't think of anybody better than you to have on. So thank you. You're very sweet. I'm looking forward to our conversation. So thank you. Amazing. So for everybody to understand, we're going to talk a little bit about sustainability and how we as an industry and players in the industry can really help this industry move forward. Robin, can you give us a little bit before we really get stuck into the meaty stuff, a little bit of background on yourself and how you found yourself Wonderful industry. Uh, it was pure luck. Um, I've been with Israel since, uh, 1989, so 34 years or so, and never would have expected that. Um, I started when I was five. I like to start off by saying that, but, um, I was actually, I have an engineering background and I was working for an environmental consulting firm. And. The firm had moved and I had started law school at night and just needed to find a job located closer to the law school and was looking, Isri was looking to hire an environmental compliance person at the time. It was located near the school. I thought I could do anything for a couple of years, but it It got in my blood. I love the people. I love the issues and it's family now. And I just, I couldn't imagine being anyplace else. We don't have issues, do we? None. Not at all. So Robin, tell me you've been doing this for so long now. Tell me, what are you most proud of? in our industry and then I guess what keeps you awake at night. Sure. You know, having the advantage of being with Israel so long, I've seen an evolution in the industry and in the association. And one of the things that I've always been so impressed by and, and makes me so proud of being associated with Israel in the industry is the resilience. And the, um, inventiveness of those in the industry, you know, there are two, we joked about, there are no issues. There are so many challenges and issues that the industry faces like many industries, but we always managed to get through it. And we're always better at the other end of it. And, um, so that just, you know, Truly impresses me. And it's one of the reasons why I love working at Israel. Yeah. I think resilience is massive, right? I think in our industry at every different level of our industry, whether it's just, you know, losing a customer to, um, having an issue on the trade that you, you know, a claim that you have to deal with to massive industry issues, right. And government intervention. I mean, The fact that we're able to just keep getting through this is huge. Yeah, I don't think people recognize how, uh, complex the industry is and how, uh, complex and complicated the recycling infrastructure and the recycling chain itself is. And, um, so I, I think again, resilience is key to success in the industry. So, Robyn, what keeps you up at night? Well, personally, um, and we were talking about this a little bit before we got started, um, just what's happening in the world today. I think that's, uh, anyone who watches the news, that keeps you up at night. But, um, when I think about it from where I sit at ISRI, I think what worries me most, and what I often think about and, Grapple with all the time is how do we do a better job as an industry, as an association, as individual companies raising our voices? To raise awareness about what it is that, um, you all do every day and how critical it is to the manufacturing supply chain globally, to economic sustainability and to our planet's resilience. It, cause it's so hard to break through on the noise that's out there. Um, and so how we leverage that, how we leverage our voices, a lot of what we, it is refocus on. And it's been an increased focus for us. But it still keeps me up at night. Yeah. And I think we'll touch on quite a lot of this, but something I want to drive home very early is that the association multiple of you can only do what you can as an association, it takes, um, all of us, all the other individuals to join in, to really raise awareness and to make that noise. And I'm hoping that this masterclass, um, we can identify a few things that we can all do to help the association. You're absolutely right. We're still, when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter how big ISRI is or, or our budget size or, you know, how many visits our website gets, it's still one voice. And so we need the voices throughout the industry to, um, to amplify the messages. And we also need to be working. I'm a big on collaboration. Um, and so I think it's absolutely critical that we as an industry globally work together with our partners around the world to amplify those messages as well. I think that's why we're such good friends now, Robin. Yes, exactly. Although, I mean, collaboration is a massive part of Born Scrappy. Um, I try to explain to so many people that, you know, we're all hyper local. So we're focused on our town or our city that we are in. We're not competing with anybody else. Why are we not working together more? Right. And it can, it can honestly be as simple as I have a new buyer based in country X. I'm not sure if he's legit or not. Contact somebody in our industry and find out, right. I want to buy a piece of equipment. Who can I speak to that's already bought this piece of work? And it goes all the way, obviously up to the association level, et cetera, but it's as simple as. Just raising your hand and communicating with the person next to you. And that's actually, you know, it goes back to your first question of, you know, why I'm still at Israel or why, you know, what my story is. That's one of the things I love about this industry is, is we're one big family globally, um, and for the most part, everyone's there to help each other and we're all learning from each other constantly, um, and helping each other with the work we're doing. And that's what makes the Great. I think it was Matt Kripke in season one, and he was talking about, um, getting together at association meetings or events and actually having that beer or meeting with that person who's down the road from you or, or in another town, whatever, who you would never have met usually, or never have thought to, um, have the conversation with, but because you attend these association events, All of a sudden you're put in that environment to have those conversations. And as soon as you have the conversation, you go, Oh, that person's very similar to me, or we're like minded, we're all trying to achieve the same outcome. And all of a sudden you then feel comfortable to pick up a phone and speak to each other. I, you know, the story that comes to mind is I, I do a lot of work internationally. I travel around the world, meeting our counterparts. And, um, I remember sitting in a Japanese restaurant in Dubai. I think it was. sitting next to a gentleman from Saudi Arabia, across from someone from India, and there was someone from Europe with me. And I was just thinking, first of all, we were sharing stories about our families and, and at its heart, we all have the same concerns, the same issues. And, you know, we become smarter people, better people, more understanding people when we're all working together and spending time together. That's exactly right. So, I mean, for those of you that listen and the amount of times I push to go to these. And conferences and that, um, you know, we speak into the president now and, uh, obviously she will advocate for it as well, but, um, yeah, we, we need to get to those more. So Robin, what does sustainability mean to you? With regards to metal recycling and I guess what's the end goal here? What are we all trying to achieve? Well, you know, I grapple with the word sustainability because it has so many different meanings and it's defined in so many different ways at its core. What it means is operating your business. And our economy really, our global economy in a way that is responsible, treats people well, and creates a resilient planet. And so whether you're talking about people, profits, and planet, or you're talking about ESG, environment, social governance, all of it comes down to how we are managing our operations in a way that is protecting the next generation. Thanks a lot. And ensuring that it's there for the next generation. And so, you know, Israel has been doing a lot of work to help our members prepare for the lens that is sustainability now, because that is the lens that a lot of businesses are operating through right now. And I think what's also key is that when you think about the recycled materials industry and recycling operations, what you do every day. Is sustainable is what's creating that sustainable planet and, and moving us towards that circular economy that we're all trying to move towards. So, in many ways, there's a lot of overlap there. And I think that's what makes it really difficult for recyclers to get their arms around sustainability because it's like, well, isn't that what we're doing? And one of the biggest challenges is that, and I've seen this over the years as I've worked for Israel. We don't like talking about what we do, and we use our own language that really others can't relate to. So as the world is now looking through the sustainability lens, trying to explain what we do and the benefit it brings and how it's sustainable is a real challenge, just coming up with that language. And that's what history is trying to work on for our members. It's difficult for us, right? And and I think something you touched on earlier was sustainability is, you know, just the word is all encompassing. So when people come to us, and this can be a new client who's selling us material, it could be a new buyer, a mill internationally, who says to us things like, we want to know more about your sustainability. That's foreign to us because we are sustainable. We are sustainability. Right. Um, so I think it's really important that we understand a little bit more about it. And, and it hasn't been a focus. For many of us in the industry, because, as I said, we are sustainability. We are keeping that circular economy running. And so it's You have to think about sustainability in many different ways. You think about it, about what you're doing with your own operations, whether you're using alternative fuels in your vehicles, or you're electrifying your equipment, your water reuse system and shredders, whatever it might be, or your safety program, a core safety program. That's all part of a sustainability program. So part of what we've been trying to do with members is just explain that you are already doing a lot of it. But you got to figure out how to document it now, but then there's the issue of how and you touched on this, how all that we're doing is helping our customers. With their sustainability program by helping create that green steel by helping them reduce greenhouse gas emissions by using recycled materials, et cetera. So it's everything. You're absolutely right. There's obviously one thing as well. It's carbon emission tracking, right? There's a reliance on us to do that as well. Um, whether it means exporting and the container trips that it's taking your road transport, what emissions you have on your own facility. So although we are sustainability guys, I think it's important that we also understand that we're having to record things now for the first time and go that extra mile and show what we're doing. Cause we are generally going that extra mile anyway, but actually to document it. So what resources does Israel offer its members? I'm to help them on the sustainability journey. It's a great question. And just like sustainability is a large term and encompasses a lot. There's a lot of resources we have to cover all of that. So everything from the very basic of we in 2023 did a monthly series on the environmental, social governance, Um, and I think that's System. And how does it work? What does it mean to go on that ESG journey and document it? And so we brought in experts to help every month to go through another element of the ESG and they're all recorded. And so they're available to all members free of charge to help companies go through that journey of ESG tracking. Now, sustainability again, people, planet profits. Let's talk about people. What that means is operating a safe workplace. And ISRI has had a program on workforce safety since before I started ISRI. That's always been a core value for ISRI. So we've got experts on staff who help with developing safety blueprints, developing safety management programs, and safety manuals, et cetera. So we have a lot of safety resources and safety training that is available to the industry through ISRI. Another element is just workforce development. And so we have a lot of workforce development training programs and resources that are on our website as well to help. Another element is, is planet that's environmental compliance. So, we have a lot of resources on all the different elements of environmental compliance for operations, how to operate responsibly, and we have actually on staff also environmental compliance experts to help answer questions for members. So, there's a range of tools. We also have a recycling industry operating standard, which for 3rd party certified. We also have that program. So, there's a tremendous amount that we're doing and. And then there's our convention, which is a wonderful way in April of every year to come with 6, 000 of your best friends now almost 7, 000 to there's over 50 different workshops during the course of that week, where you can learn from your counterparts in the industry as well as experts on how to do all of this. And this will be a major focus of what we're doing at the convention this April. Yeah, I'll be there, um, with my new product as well that we'll be launching, which is really exciting. I'll also be speaking on one of those panels. So I don't know how much I can help people, but, um, I will be on a panel there as well. Um, and we'll be, we'll be doing born scrappy from the stage there as well, which will be quite nice, but here's something I want to just touch on. So to make it a little bit practical for, um, I guess, owner operators, when you are applying for a tender or looking to get a new customer on board, and they want to know more about sustainability, don't immediately go to carbon emissions Or some form of, you know, tray electrifying all your equipment. You can actually, if you listen to what Robin is saying, you can actually utilize all of your training for your staff, right. Um, your health and safety stuff, all that information that you have, they document as much of that as possible as well, because. For us, we think it's just normal. We train our staff, right? There's no vocational part. So the fact that we're training our people on the ground or using Israel, um, information to be able to train our team, we need to document that stuff. Um, and if you document it, utilize it as well. And we actually one of the things that we're about to unveil is a toolkit, an ESG toolkit that will actually help companies with the basic blueprint. So we'll have that very soon as well to announce, but I do want to mention one other thing, which I forgot to mention as we're talking about sustainability, another important element of sustainability is community engagement. And this is one of the things that has That I love about this industry, but it's also a big frustration to be honest in that at the part of the culture of our industry is helping others and working in our communities. But we don't talk about it a lot. You know, I'm amazed that the number of our members who just happen to mention to me that they've funded and have set up a perhaps a soup kitchen in their community or they're working with a local school and they're buying backpacks for the kids or whatever it may be and or cleanups in the community. All of these things our members are doing, but they don't talk about it. And that's part of sustainability as well, is creating stronger communities and partnering in our communities. And we have to take credit for it. And so I would encourage people to document that as well. That's interesting. I wouldn't have thought that that falls under the umbrella. So I'm really happy that you're telling me this because there is a lot of it that's done and flies under the radar, but slowly but surely we're seeing more of it on social media. People are feeling a little bit more comfortable, you know, Putting their head up a little bit and not getting it chopped off. And then they go, okay, well, you know, we'll keep going with a little bit more until people, what we're doing. It doesn't necessarily mean they're doing more of it. It just means we're showing more of it. Exactly. And, and what I guess the tension is you don't want to look like you're doing this because you want to score a point. Um, and I know our members so well over all these years, and that's not the reason why our industry does these things. It truly is part of the culture and the fabric of who we all are as an industry. Yeah. Yeah. I couldn't agree more with that. Um, and that came through quite strongly in season one. Um, that guys are slowly starting to make that change and slowly getting onto social media more. Um, and, and it touches back to the beginning of what we spoke about, which was, um, we need to do this all together. The more people that are posting about the good things that our industry is doing, um, the better this will be for everybody. And I'll give you an example of how we need to work together. You've mentioned a couple of times greenhouse gas emissions and documenting that, and that's a challenge. And to us, it's a challenge for us at ISRI as well. We're still trying to figure it out. And I think most companies and most industries are, how do you document The greenhouse gas emission savings at your own facilities, but also the emissions downstream, et cetera. And there really isn't, I don't believe that there is a accepted methodology that everyone uses. So, we're all trying to figure this out and we actually reached out to last year and said, we need this. It is where we're trying to figure out how to do this for our members develop that resource. But it's silly for ISRI to do it on its own. We all need it. We're all going to need it globally. So we reached out to BIR and suggested this is something that can be done under the umbrella of BIR that ISRI will partner with BIR to do, but let's bring in all the associations together to work on this project. And so we're working on it with them right now. And the goal is by the end of 2024, there will be a product, but I think it's a great example of us all working together to solve an issue for the industry. Yeah, that's a, that's an amazing example. Um, every single person I interviewed in season one got asked, how do they collaborate in our industry? And that, and that's just the most perfect, perfect answer, you know, for Israel to be reaching out to the BAR and you guys working together as association and trying to solve a really big problem is. It's, it's incredible. And I don't think everybody who listens knows the work that's put in by the associations in the background. So I'm hopefully, hopefully this will highlight that a little bit more. Let's, let's understand, um, what are some of the biggest challenges in our industry that we're facing in terms of sustainability? Is it that we don't speak openly about it? You know, what is it and how do we, um, Fix this. I think there are a couple of challenges. It's true. One of the biggest is that, yeah, we don't talk much about what we're doing. And we don't trying to find the right words to break through. We are so vital are this industry is so vital to a global, the global manufacturing supply chain. And we all learned in COVID how actually unstable that supply chain could be. And the truth is that the recycled materials industry through the high quality. Renewable resources that are being generated by our industry, uh, are critically important to a stable, secure, and sustainable supply chain. And we need to figure out a way to get that message out. And so actually one of the things ISRI did, and I never thought in all my years at ISRI I'd ever actually do this, but we actually did a language project. We hired a language expert who knew they were out there to help us figure out what the right words are. Because me, the, the, you know, Engineering nerd talks about sick. It's talks about a commodity grade materials and feedstock and things like that and scrap. Those aren't the words that mean anything to policymakers and to journalists and those people that we really need to listen to us. So we're, we've developed this language lexicon that we've actually shared globally. We actually shared it through the BIR with our counterparts all around the world. It's now been translated into Hindi by MRAI. The Brazilians and Nespas translate into Brazil, into Portuguese. We've got to translate into a number of languages around the world so it can be used because in order to really, um, get over this challenge and get over this hurdle, we also need to be leveraging the same messages. And so this language lexicon is going to help us do that. And we're real excited about that. Yeah. And I've heard it coming through. I mean, I was at the Middle East association just a little while ago and they were all using the same language. I was at the BIR using the same language. MRI, I, you know, I'm attending at the end of this month, end of January. And, um, They're all using the same language, so it's definitely working. That's one of my proudest moments actually to know that the other associations and industries and segments of the industry around the world are using it. And it's great because one of the big things we learned was, look, I think scrap is beautiful. I think shredded scrap, shredded steel is beautiful. I think, you know, turnings are beautiful, but your average person doesn't. And what they think about are the end product. And so we need to shift and talk about how recycled materials are used every day in the products that our families use. I mean, the fact that copper is in the wire that feeds the electricity and feeds the internet that goes into your home, that the, um, utility infrastructure is fed through green steel. I mean, all these things we need to talk about, and that's going to help shift the conversation as well and promote the sustainability of the industry. Absolutely. I mean. And just everything you're saying makes me think of John Sacco's repurposed, right? I mean, obviously for good reason, um, he is doing such incredible, incredible work for the whole industry. And I, I keep mentioning, and I'll say it on LinkedIn and I'll say it in the podcast that we need to help him. Like he's doing that. That's great. That's one aspect of what we as an industry are doing, but we need to all follow suit. So use the correct language and have the career, have that conversation with the right people. You know, then you've got, um, we've got Jessica and Brad from scrap university who have created these kids books, which we're trying to promote and get into schools because it's got to start at even a younger age to where they see the importance. And that's actually, you hit on one of the things that I'm most proud about that we do at ISRI, which is our youth outreach work. About 10 years ago, we started working with a group called Jason Learning, which is a nonprofit focused on STEM education. And we partnered with them on the development of a K through 12 recycling curriculum, which continues to evolve. We've now expanded to actually we're going to be working on a teacher's institute actually next year. We have a youth outreach poster and video contest every year. And we think we've reached probably about 2 million students, which is still a very small percentage of students, you know, in the US and certainly around the world, but it's growing. And I couldn't be more excited about it because there are future teachers, our future policy makers, lawmakers. Journalists etc. So I don't hear much about that. Robin. This is the first I'm hearing, um, that you guys have or are attempting to infiltrate and get into the schools. I have heard of the competition. You said, um, and I think that usually the awards around somewhere around Israel, something happens with the event and then I think they get to come to it or something. And that's the only reason why I've heard about it. So, um, That is something we need to promote more, um, because I think it will get other people in other countries doing the same thing and they can learn from you. Um, it is actually one of the things that we set up initially when we partnered with Jason. We actually put part of our contract with them is that unlike their other curriculum, STEM curriculum, this had to be open source. Because we want to make it as available as possible and for teachers to just pull it and use it for their classrooms, use it in after school activities. Um, it's wonderful. It's really a wonderful tool and I'd encourage people to check it out. You can check it out through jason. org or through israel. org's website. Um, it's available for all and we have a number of our members who've actually adopted schools in their communities. Great example again of sustainability. But it got adopted schools and donated this program to their schools and have helped, uh, train teachers. We have a training program for teachers. So please use it. And it's just as a mom of two daughters, uh, two young kids, you know, this is so important to me to get this in the hands of the next generation. And one of the things that I love in particular about why we partnered with Jason is because they build mentors into their program, especially, um, Kids, minorities, girls, so these kids can see that they can be the future recyclers. They can work in a recycling operation. They can be an economist. They can be whatever they want to be. They can be an engineer. And the examples are right there for them. I absolutely love this. This, I mean, we could speak. I could have a few episodes and just discuss and brainstorm a few other ways to make this go more viral and get it out there. I'd love that. But, but I've got to kind of stick to the program. Otherwise my wife might get really upset with me, the boss. So let's understand what metal processes. Can do right now. So what are the low hanging fruit that these guys, or we can do when it comes to sustainability, what could we do today? Well, I think, um, everything you do is moving towards a sustainable future. And just stepping back and thinking about what are the things that you're doing within your own operations, uh, that are helping to reduce water usage, What are you doing that is helping to produce that product that is going to have a recycled content? So what products are your materials going into? Ask your customers. When you sell your product, talk to your customer about how are they going to be using that material and then document it. Those are the easy things to do. Yeah, I think it's, it's being proactive. Um, I think a lot of us. I think I touched on it slightly, but, but, um, we step away from it because it's, it's a word, which we believe we are fully doing, but people want more information and sometimes we might get our backup and be, we are sustainable. We are recycling, but actually all they need is to tick the boxes and make sure that you are giving them the information that they need, because yes, we are doing it, but it's about giving that information, whether it means, you know, Putting it on social media and letting everybody know, or whether it means applying for a tender, making sure that you fill that document with all the information you have. But that means recording it. That means starting with recording it, right? And that's where we could start today. I would encourage your listeners. If they have any questions, you're not sure where to start. Reach out, shoot me an email. it is re. org or go to me on LinkedIn. And I'd love to connect whoever's interested with the resources that we have. Um, because the more we can help others, the, the, you know, more we raise the performance and, and the success of the industry overall. So Robin, what sort of role do you see carbon emission tracking? Playing in our industry in the future. Is this something that we as the processes should be thinking about right now? I know you mentioned that you working on something. But for us right now, is it something we should be worrying about, focused on? What do you recommend we do about that? Well, I know for a fact a lot of the larger companies, um, have folks, sustainability people on their staff, who are starting to look at this. And I've already started documenting some of this. And actually, uh, Before I came on to your podcast today, I was actually reading the sustainability report from one of our largest member companies because we can all learn from those. So I think actually just check out, go online, check out the sustainability report for, I mean, I can, radius recycling, commercial metals company, and I'm sure I'm going to not think of a company. I should, uh, essay recycling, Sims, all the, the larger companies just go on their websites. See if they have sustainability reports and read them and understand how they're talking about this and how they're how they're documenting what they're doing, including how they are looking at greenhouse gas emissions reductions in terms of documenting greenhouse gas emissions. I don't know that it's being required. Right now for most members. I'm hoping that by the end of the year, we'll have a tool that will help members do it. So it's not something that you have to worry about now, but I think it's, it doesn't hurt to educate yourself by starting to read some of these reports. Yeah, Robin, you found yourself in a very difficult situation. We started naming some companies because now anybody listening is going, well, why didn't Robin think of me? So I just, I always be quite careful, but there'll come a question later when I'll ask you about the people that you're watching. And, um, that's where people get a little bit tricky. They try not to get any names. So I think it's, I think it's educating yourself, making sure that you know what's coming or what's probably going to be needed. Don't necessarily have to go and prepare documents and information like SA are doing or SIMS are doing. You don't have that team surrounding you yet. You don't necessarily want to spend that money to get it done and you probably don't need to just yet. I think there is an understanding from what you're saying is that there will be a need at a later stage. Exactly. And actually, you know, it's interesting. We're all learning, including Israe. When we started going down this journey as the association three years ago or so, I had just hired Cheryl Coleman on tour staff. Cheryl Coleman came to us from the US EPA, and she came in and became our first sustainability professional on staff. And she and I were educating each other and learning together. What are ESGs? How do you document them? And what we ended up doing was creating a sustainability network. We actually contacted our member companies that had sustainability staff and invited them into a conversation and said, help educate us. So we started with a group of about 10 sustainability professions from the professionals from the industry with monthly calls talking about, okay, what are you doing? How are you approaching this? And we're all learning from each other. So it's really very new. And it's even if, Even for these larger companies, it's still very new and it's evolving. If you look at the sustainability reports for 2021. Versus 22 versus 23. You'll see how they evolve and how they get more sophisticated every year. Because again, we're all learning through this. That's another great example of collaboration. I'm going to even move the collaboration word to community because you created a little sustainability community filled with people with knowledge and work together for a greater good. Exactly. I mean, if that's not what we should be doing, you know, then I don't know what is, whether it's on sustainability, whether it's on equipment, whether it's on whatever it might be, but those communities are so vital to this industry. And that's what an association is at its core. It's a community of members who come together to help each other and to leverage resources. And that's the bottom line of what ISRI is and what we try to do for our members. Yeah. Yeah. And I've seen that. I agree completely. Robin, what role do you feel technology will play in the industry with regards to more sustainability requirements? I think it's huge. Um, and you know, when you think about those outside the industry who don't understand the industry or don't really know it, they don't realize how, as I said before, how complex it is, but also how high tech it is and can be. And we see more artificial intelligence, AI, more robotics, and so as we're trying to create more high quality products. To use in the manufacturing supply chain, as we're trying to increase yields and reduce contamination, technology plays a huge part, and that's all part of creating that more sustainable future is creating that high quality product. Yeah, the better our product become the less waste, right? The less emissions, the less issues that we're going to have globally. A great example is actually in steel, steelmaking. I was just reading in one of these sustainability reports about one of the companies that has used new technology that helps them create a pure, a shredder stream that is creating a ferrous product that has a lower copper concentration. That then enables the steel makers to produce a green steel that saves greater energy and reduces greenhouse gas emissions. So it's all related. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And when it comes to technology with regards to, I guess, tracking, documenting, and things like that, I mean, I expect there will be a huge amount of that available in the next few years as well. Yeah. And actually that's one of my biggest surprises that that doesn't exist really right now. And that's why we've had to create, Isra is in the process of creating this. toolkit, the CSG toolkit. I would have thought something like that would have been created, but it's also new for everyone. Um, but I would not be surprised if in the next year or two, there are some products out there that are specific to the industry that help people track. I think that's really important. That last piece is that specific to the industry is really difficult because to understand our industry, you have to be in it. It's really difficult for a tech or a group of people in tech, whatever it might be with that experience to come and build something for our industry. You said it earlier, we use our own language. Right. So for somebody to develop something, I mean, yeah, they might talk in binary and code, but that's, you know, that's very different to us talking in, on Israel specs and scrap or metal recycling, whatever it might be. Exactly. Because when we actually mentioned this monthly series that we're doing on ESG and how actually it came out of the sustainability network of 10 companies that we had initially, we started looking for these off the shelf products that would help us document and we talked to a couple of companies, but none of them fit this industry. None of them were easily adoptable. And to be honest, we didn't have the resources to be able to do it ourselves or the expertise, but I've got to imagine a really smart person out there is going to be doing that soon. It will happen, but it isn't something that happens as quickly as it happens in the automobile industry, as an example. Correct. Correct. Yeah. You just hit on something really important also that I want to mention. I don't know if it fits in here, but one of the big trends and you think about sustainability in general, in the global economy, what are we all working towards a decarbonized future? And so electrification is very important. And that is so integral to our industry. It will depend so much on the success of our industry, because you think about all the materials, the metals that are going to be necessary for the products that are the electric vehicles and wind turbines, et cetera, that are needed for that decarbonized future. And we're going to have to be producing a lot of those and sourcing those materials. So it's very much, we're, we're so integral to all that's happening in this area. I mean, I wish I could hop on that further because without us, none of it's possible. Exactly. I mean, that just summarizes it, right? I mean, they cannot, the world cannot go electrified and change what's been happening in the past. Without our industry, right? And that's actually, I think, part of the transition that, um, we, as associations are all trying to deal with when we think about our advocacy work, because I see this with the U. S. government. On the 1 hand, the U. S. government is coming out with critical mineral policies and strategies, and there's 3 pillars to it. And 1 of those pillars is essentially recycling. Strengthening recycling in order to make sure lithium, cobalt, copper are all available. But on the other hand, you still have the traditional way that government sometimes looks at the industry. And how do you bring that together and have a much more forward looking approach towards the need for our industry and the benefits of our industry? And that's one of the challenges I think. All of us in the association community have across the globe when it comes to this industry. And I posted a few months ago and your kids are a bit older but I took my kids to go watch the new Paw Patrol movie. And the opening scene is in a metal recycling yard. There's, there's cars, there's a big magnet and there's a gigantic fire. Right. And at the end the Paw Patrol save the day or the end of the fire and they have a photo. And the owner of the middle of a cycling yard says three, two, one junk. And I'm like, these are the kids just being taught. We played, we just spoke about it. We are the most, most pivotal role in moving to electrification and, you know, reducing carbon emissions. But they're portraying us as a stinky, dirty junkyard. Exactly. And that goes back to, again, getting the messages out and the language. But, and that's where we all have responsibility. I mean, I can stand up and talk about how amazing this industry is and put out ads in, in the New York times, the Washington post, the wall street journal, et cetera. But it's not going to make any difference if the local recyclers and communities aren't. Operating in an environmentally responsible manner, keeping their workers safe, et cetera. So it's, it's up to all of us to do our part, uh, to get that message out. So on that topic, who are the people or companies leading by example at the moment and be careful not to leave anybody out this time, and therefore I'm not going to mention any, but I'm just going to say that I'm just I couldn't be proud of our industry, more proud of the industry and, and proud of our leadership. Actually, it is Ray, uh, Brian Hennessy as chair, Colin Kelly coming in, uh, Gary Champlin just stepped out. They're really doing a great job leading our industry into the future by, um, reinforcing the need to make these investments within Israel. To grow a sustainability program, to create these tools that members need. So, you know, I'm so grateful for the volunteers at History, and I'm not going to mention any members in particular. That was the safe, the safe answer. Well done. Yeah, thank you. Um, Robin, we're running out of time, and we could talk for days on all of this. Um, but I'd like to just finish with the normal way we finish, and get to know you a little bit better. So getting to know Robin, do you have a favorite TV series or movie? Sure. I love the good place during, um, good place in the office during COVID. I watched those nonstop with my kids and they were just so much fun. It was wonderful. But what is it, the good place and the office? Yeah, both those shows. They're both sitcoms. Um, and they're both wonderful. I know, I know The Office well. I watched the original British Office. I don't know if you ever saw that. Yes, I saw some of it, not all of it. Not as addicted as I was to the US version. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was very, I loved The Office, absolutely. Um, what's your favorite place to visit? There's actually a couple. Um, Greece. I love going to Greece. Spain and Cape Cod here in the States, any place I can just look at the water, sit and read a book and look at the water and the blue water is just amazing to me. That's awesome. You should try Cape Town sometime. I would love to. I've never actually been to Africa and it's on my bucket list. So I'd love to set you up with a safari sometime as well. Safari and a bit of Cape Town, where you can sit and read your book. Looking over the water and then on safari, um, dream, I grew up, I grew up watching, um, was it, um, wild safari? I don't know if that was the name of the show, but it, um, wild kingdom, I think it was called. And I've always wanted to go on safari. It's a, it should be on your bucket list. Absolutely. Talking about reading books. What's your favorite book? I'm sure you have a few. I do have a few. Uh, one of the books I read recently was The World, a brief introduction by Richard Haass. It's an amazing book. It's um, actually relatively short, but it's a overview of basically world history and, and all the societal changes and the different forces that brought us to where we are today. Great book. Uh, but on fiction, probably a book called Personal Librarian. Uh, wonderful book about J. P. Morgan's Personal Librarian and it's fantastic. Oh, that's awesome. I'm talking about the previous book, your first one. Um, there's a good book that I read by Ray Dalio. I think it's called the changing world order. Um, it's probably about two years old now. Um, also kind of takes you back through history. Um, and all the changing of, you know, superpowers and the world orders and the rest, you know, the Roman Empire, British, whatever it might be, um, and to today, and it shows you, and then he kind of thinks what could happen in the future, really worth a good read and really good. Yeah, I enjoyed it. That'll be the next book. Thank you. And have you got a favorite quote? I do. Um, you're probably going to be surprised this one. It's, um, it's from Winston Churchill. It's, if you're going through hell, keep going. Keep going. And it's just, I love it because it's really, it's about perseverance and determination. And regardless of how hard your situation is, just keep moving and you'll get through it. Um, I think it was Eleanor in season one gave us the same quote. It's a, it's a fantastic quote. Um, I use it often, um, you know, whenever you, whenever you are helping somebody or, you know, somebody who's having a tough time and I always like to be approachable and people reach out to me and. That that's when I use a lot and keep going, you know, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. And, and, um, when you look back, you find out that it was all, it was all there for a reason and you needed to go through that to get tougher. So that's an awesome way to end. Robin, thank you so much. I've absolutely loved having you on the episode. Same here. Thank you very much for inviting me. I appreciate it. Thanks Robin. Cheers. Bye. Bye.
