S2E3: From private banker to global recycler, the journey of humble leader Jawed Ahmed of Al Qaryan

In this episode, I'm joined by Jawed Ahmed. Jawed is the Chairman of Al Qaryan International.

The Al Qaryan group have their physical sites in Saudi Arabia and their trading office is based in Dubai.  They are a huge player on the global scene.

In the episode, we chat about:

• Deciding on the plan and being prepared for the challenges
• How to make our industry more attractive to new recruits
• Why KYC is not just a box-ticking exercise
• Looking for the opportunities
• And so much more!

WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing...

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

I brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste).

I thought it was time that tech worked for our industry, so I took all of my experience as an operator and trader and leveraged that to build THE killer scrap app, Buddy. That’s right - built for scrappies, by scrappies.

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 9 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

Transcript

0:00

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I'm joined by Javed Ahmed. Javed is the chairman of Al Karyan International. The Al Karyan group have their physical sites in Saudi and their trading office is based in Dubai. They are a huge player on the global scene. Keep listening and find out exactly how big. In today's episode, we talk about looking for the opportunities. Decide on the plan and be prepared for the challenges, why KYC is not just a box ticking exercise, how to make our industry more attractive to new recruits, and so much more. So let's get into it with Javed, but first, intro. Hi, Javed. How are you? Oh, doing well. Thank you. And you? Yeah, I'm, I'm excellent. Thanks, man. I'm, I'm just so chuffed to have you on Born Scrappy. It was just the other day I was sitting in your office. So, um, so excited to see you, um, on the other side of the camera. Oh, likewise, my, my friend. Likewise. And I'm so happy to see you on camera. Thank you so much. So Javed, um, we've spent quite a bit of time lately. Um, we sat at Kolkata. We sat together at the MRII for a while in your booth, a couple hours there. We, um, I actually watched you at the BIR. Uh, if anybody was there in Abu Dhabi, you were on stage with my good friend from New Zealand, Paul Coit. So, um. We spent quite a bit of time together with all my traveling and that over the last few days, and I was in your lovely offices, um, probably two weeks ago. Now they love it. I've met the whole team. It was a fantastic time. So thank you for hosting me there. Um, I wanted to ask you, tell us a little bit about your journey, how you got into metal recycling and more about I'll carry on if you can. Uh, Stu, thank you very much for inviting me on your podcast. And, um, the, my story is hard, uh, long days ago, and it's very funny. And I'd like to share with you when I start carrier, I wanted to be a banker. So the, my whole education, all qualification, even, uh, commerce and, and business study goes for the banking and financial institution. And I did it after completing my MBA in finance. I went to bank and I got a job, what dream job I wanted to get it. Believe me, I was working for the largest private bank. Everyone knowing in India, it's named SDFC. I got depository, the people will come and deposit their fund. But I got a job like a backend, like in operation to be processing the whole operation and I want to be a part of the customer handing to be no customer what they're thinking, how the business is running. So from day one, though, I was a backend guys back operation. I wanted to come in front of the people and saying, Hey, how can I help you? So my career started like 2012, 2000. Early 2000, first quarter I joined, joined the company and I was so happy, so blessed thinking, well, this is what I dreamed and I got it. Okay. After a year later, I got a call because my boss, uh, he's a nice guy. He was a GM, he said, well, I saw that you were excited all the time to be frontline. You want to do. Be a part of the front front team, um, shifting you from the depository to go in mutual fund in the same company. And I was so excited because I was getting a chance to go into. And I work 1 and a half years having. Huge projects and getting exposed in the corporate, believe me that. We have no file where everything's working on this variation, like, everything's new on the system. 1 day, I got a call from some recruitment agency that you got. And you wanted to go for Saudi Arabia. Uh, for sales job, because he see my profile and I said, well, I never decided, but let me look at into. And then he sent me the offer and I was excited and said, yes, I want to go for that. Though, I changed my, I mean, you know, the city that changed my plan. I went to Bombay that time we said Bombay like today say, Mumbai. And, uh, I had interviewed the selected me. He said, Hey. Hey, you go three weeks. You have to fly from here to Saudi Arabia and Riyadh. And I said, well, I'm so excited. After three weeks, four weeks later, I came to know that company, and he called back there. Uh, you know, they are not going to hire the guys that call back because so they shouldn't come into that and decided to not take these people into Saudi Arabia because the government announced the all sales jobs should be the Saudi citizen. And when I was coming back, I went there to collect my passport and I was coming back and I said, hey, let's go back to join my again, the banks where I have been assorted my friends meeting in between and said, hey, David, why are you going back when you're trying to go into different company? And I said, no, no, no, it's enough. The 1st time I tried, and I'm somehow it's not. I felt the company don't want to take me because. Something there on, on region. He forced me to, to go to attend one interview. There was in Bombay, I went in, I just remember, uh, it was O'Brien Hotel. And my chairman, the group chairman, Muhammad Gayan Al Gahtani, the dynamic guys who built this empire. I have full respect for him and for his family. I met them, and he said, after meeting a few minutes. Are you ready to come with me in finance? And I said, Hey, Mike, my God, I never been anything to go into finance. I'm the guys who wanted to do the business. He convinced me. And finally I said, yes, I'm coming with you. And that my journey started from there. When I landed in Saudi Arabia, 2003, believe me, I found any very difficult because I was living in, in nice office, large corporate. And lending with this scrap company. Okay. Though I was knowing this is the scrap company and I found myself is tough time to understand this business. But when I went inside, I found untapped opportunity that we need to grow. We can enhance it. The company can, can, can be helpful for my experience. So I start, you know, working the finance, seeing that what can, would be figured out to make the business can grow. And I start. Discussing with the chairman, Mr. Mohammad Gian, and he is dynamic guys. He always respect the talent. You know, he never said no, even he, he know very well if you give any suggestion, he just, you know, listen you very well. So I just start giving, you know, left and right idea that, you know, we can grow this way. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And, uh, believe me, his brother, Mr. Hamud, Gian, who was the MD that time both supported me like a left and right. And, uh, we start exploring here and there. I found everything's in, in manual. And I, I went one, one day to chairman and saying, Hey, I find it. There's no software in the company, no proper software. And he smiled on my face and he said, Jared, you know that you're working in a scrap company. And I did remember I told them, boss, for me, it's a scrap or gold, both got value. And I'm talking about the value side. So if it's kind of got a value, we need need to have any right software. And he is smiling and said, Okay, I know what you're saying, let's let's let's start. So I'll start finding the software company I found a software company placing in the system. And after placing that software we organized very well into know that what is going on and then that software was not enough we went into Oracle ERP that ERP was excellent. Your class. 10, 12 years, that was excellent. And finally last 10 years, or maybe nine years ago, we decided to go for a much bigger software, which is called SAP ERP, which is one of the best software in the industry for, for the trading, for, uh, manufacturing, for processing, and we invested a lot of money into that. So I've seen the growth. If you look at today, where I'm, I'm, I'm working as a chairman, it's South Korean international is a trading company. It's a global trading company where we buy B2B. We're going for the warehousing, we've got the warehousing, the next level just investing into, you know, backward integration like a plant, any plant. And then the final eventually we will land into the mines, but I wanted to give you something. I'll create a group, I'll create a group is, I must say, the largest in prison. They do. The last year, almost 1. 65M turn there is a non status. Our turnover should be over 2Billion. All consolidated 1, we have large, uh, any team members. That's maybe 2400 or 500, a little more, I believe. And so they got like, 24 yards. This is, you know, all yards where we have export yard and where we have a feeder yard. And we got like backward integration for steel mill, then, uh, copper plant, the plastic, and this we are thinking to go forward to see how it can process. So, this is why, you know, in a nutshell that how we, we came to this level. It's, um, it's quite funny. So many people I speak to, everybody comes from different backgrounds. Everybody comes in a different way, lands into metal recycling, right. Um, and you landed in, you know, 20 odd years ago, um, from the banking industry and, um, you were able to see things like, you know, we need software and, and, and I'm sure that was ahead of a lot of other people, but what I'm glad to have got from that is, um, for people to understand the size. Of your corporation, you know, um, I'll carry on is a gigantic player in this industry. Um, huge amount of volume coming out of Saudi and then huge amount traded globally as well, which obviously falls directly under you as well. So tell me. Briefly, uh, what's a day in the life of Javed like? Do you get up really early? Are you a late sleeper? You coffee? Good question. Uh, still, I mean, you know, every day is different, you know, we learning every day and in, in trading business today, we're learning last five years. Every day is not the same day as you spend a study, you know, he got a lot of challenges, but he got a lot of opportunity to, you know, so for me, I find that if I learned yesterday that we can use tomorrow. Right? So, if I learned yesterday, I can use today and then we can, we can go forward. So, for me, in training business today is very important to understand or even the processing or the large in this industry. You cannot be a state that what you build it last year or last 10 years or 20 years or 30 years that you can stay. You have to find. Every single day, the new things we say all the time, you know, find a new opportunity, focus it and keep growing your business. If you don't grow yourself one day, you will be on reaching on the situation. Right? So we find every single day that the new. Part that okay, this is what we're doing. I'm not talking about to go outside industry within the industry or beyond industry. So for me, I mean, every day is a different. It's not the same that what you did yesterday. I have to do today the same and then tomorrow and forward the same. No, we. Are different. We, every day, we think that what we can add next into our day, this is the way we work. It's incremental growth, right? If every single day you're getting 1 percent better, it's compound interest, right? The end, you're so much better. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One year of every day, 1 percent better. You're a different. Animal at the end of the year, you know, you're, you're in another level. So I I'm a big believer in that as well. So you wake up in the morning, not sure what you're going to get through, but you know, you're going to work on getting better and looking for opportunities. Absolutely. I agree with the same. Yeah. So Javed, talk me through a trade that you've had to deal with previously. You've been doing this for a long time, a trade that was a difficult trade, something that, um, really you had to get stuck into, um, it didn't go the way you were planning and you know, what you learned and what you maybe changed with your strategy after that. Well, uh, Stu, it's a lot. I mean, I, if I count, I can't count it, but the only one thing I can, I can tell you with confidence that when we made a business plan, we know the challenges and tough days that is going to become over. But most important when we planned any business. Whether we're talking about a group or we're talking about the training business, we make sure including my team members who, I mean, if I say about my team and my colleague and it got blessed, bless us that we got a, a very good team in place that will understand the same language. If initially we talk maybe different languages, when we start any planning, any business, any structures, any strategy. But end of day, we align together. This is the business plan or this is what we decided we have to go through. So whenever we decide the business plan, we make sure that we can achieve that what we decided. This is the most important. We know fact that while doing this business or doing this process will get challenges by this. tough days that we are are prepared for that. So I assure you that whatever we decided so far, we ending with the success. We never failed into our success, but I'll tell you some, any few of them that I remember recently, when we started trading company, we got like a lot of any hiccup because it's maybe tiny knowledge or early knowledge into trading. We got a huge issue in South Africa. Though I respect customer, I respect supplier. There was a mismatch. I mean, I believe the quality issue was there indeed. Perhaps we could do the better way, but ended with a huge, huge pressure. And the problem was there. I don't want to take the name, but because we treat our customer as a partners and our, our customer treat as a partner to us. And we learned from our mistake, right? So we got a bigger exposure, I believe, if I say it's more than 37 million, right? And we ended up taking a tough decision to recall back whatever the quality issue I don't want to send to our customer, because customer is my everything, right? So I took the decision, though my board was not aligned, I'm saying here, but I'm repeating this. But I took a call to save my customer, to save my company and save the goodwill of the Grian Group, because that is we build it. I know the materials got an issue, let's call back from there. And that was a huge, huge, expensive, uh, call. So that was one of them. And in trading, also I find people are, uh, do cheat, fraud. I bought copper ended with the empty containers. So, a lot of lot of things is happened last couple of years but you know after this all mistakes we learned that how to. Go, uh, to buy from the real partners to do the right KYC, know your customer very well, visit them, making sure if you cannot visit everyone. So get a defense form. Uh, we do the KYC forms, the large form today because they will be by the top four audit company. So we've got a defense. We're talking to people, like I said, you see, you know, you are from New Zealand, you know, this XY company, and I trust you, you trust me. And then we do our trial. So. After all this, the mistakes happen, I think we are doing good now. We aligned with we need to learn more, but I believe we are going perfectly. Okay. So it's interesting when you're looking to do a KYC. One of the things you do is a reference check. By speaking to other parties, I always, I always recommend that, right? You can't always get on the plane, but as long as there's a trusted party that you have, who is, um, able to go and visit them or knows them already immediately. That makes you feel more comfortable, right? Like you say, if I'm in New Zealand and you've got a new company here in New Zealand, you want to buy from. How well do I know them? What's their reputation here locally? What's their quality like? Am I even able to get in a car and go and see them for you? Um, yeah, I, I agree with that wholeheartedly. Yes. When we, we call you as to, this is the guys, uh, and you said, okay, these guys, I know him very well. Sally is doing well business. We set the credit limit for them, right? Uh, that we initially, we're going to start business for a couple of hundred thousand dollars. Okay. Reaching for that labels, make sure that somebody from my team has to visit them. Do any validate the all information? It's not that we're checking the only credential, the checking that what exactly my supplier need from me. This is the most important thing about him. This is very, uh, crucial to know that his fact that he's really holding the same conditions, what we understand, but more than that, to understand their know how, they understand what exactly need from me. So once reach, uh, this business, some certain labels. We ask my guys or including me to visit them, see, meet with him, understand his process and then provide the services what exactly he needed. Yeah. Yeah. And that was really important. I just wanted to ask you, um, on the trade you spoke about earlier where, um, you had some difficulties, you mentioned you brought it back. Did you actually bring containers back from the customer? Yes, so, uh, there was a huge issue on the quality. Okay. The, what the customer is, is being upset saying that your quality is not good. And I sent my colleague and my team members to go do inspection, they found the quality is issue there. That quality could be fixed a very easy, but it was created that huge. A large issue. So to not going forward to put things in, in dispute, I decided to return back because I know the quality issues there. So we call back that let's return. And it was a huge couple of dozen container of copper. We call back. And it's a more than a million dollars to paying detention and everything. Okay, so the first few containers were opened, it was identified there was a problem. You then decided bring all the containers back, which, which is a great idea. Um, I'm not going against, I'm just clarifying. So you then said, bring all the containers back because what you didn't want is to have a massive issue with your customer now, who being the buyer, who now grades all your material and sees all your material like that in the future. Plus how are they going to handle this if it's, if, if the impurities are too high, or if it's off grade. No, we had a business with them since four or five years ago. We don't have any problem, not a single problem we had with my customers. So I respect the customer, I mean, the credentials, the commitment, though they have a tough time for a little bit paying late, but I believe the customer is a totally great, uh, shape. I, I like them. We're doing business even today because for me, the most important that to shape the little thing. Save the mission. Save is the most important because once you save the relationship, the business is, is comfort business. Always. Uh, I say it's a by product. If you have a relationship, the business will come. If business is there, you can make money. What do you lost? You can make money. So we did like, uh, choose business with that customer and we have no problem. The problem was is a real part of the issues that quality issues goes in different direction and that I must say that we could handle the better way from the both hands. Uh, but we learn both sides and we're doing fantastic business today. Yeah, that's great. Um, that's a great story. Tell me, um, how do you decide who to sell to? So we said earlier, you do a KYC, you want to make sure, um, these guys are valid or legitimate buyers, whoever it might be, how do you then? Make a decision on who you should and who you shouldn't sell to. Now we're talking about the customer side, right? And when you're selling for the first time, do you go and visit each party? Well, I told you that you can only visit, uh, every single party, but we got like a, uh, office, some countries and, uh, at most of countries are associates, right? So for example, let's say we have office in China. If any Chinese, uh, customer, where's the major customer there. If I got it, my office will go see him, understand, and then we start a business. So I didn't have any problems in the forest so far in my life because, uh, everything goes very well. Right. In India, we have our audio or far as like a Japan or Korea or, or Taiwan, everywhere. We have our own associates, like a broker, right? And we just broke up. I mean, sorting out the broker is the most important and key factor in our company. We don't hire anyone. In our company, uh, either we're talking about in the group or the on trading. That you can come and said, I'm I'm a broker. I give I can provide the prices. No, we have to know. The broker itself that he's really having the credentials, how long he's working, how his office is working, how many staff is working, how much reputation in the market, right? So if they are giving like, you know, this customer I know with my, you know, the great credential, this is you can trust him. So we can go for a small quantity, a small sales like not I told you, we have a great limit for everyone, right? So we can go up to that page and that is only weeks, right? If anything goes wrong, that, that money is, uh, might be weeks. Okay. Uh, if those goes well, then we visit them. And we have every year's visits, every six months visits, or somehow you're visiting somewhere and you're just visiting them. But eventually we visit customer and visit supplier. And very regularly. Yeah, now there's a lot of travel that goes on. There's a lot of people visiting other people. What sort of data do you monitor? You know, you spoke about software earlier. Um, how do you monitor what your people are up to? How do you monitor the volumes, the margins, et cetera? What do you utilize for that? Well, we define the things that what we need to do and what we need to get right. So we do at the business plan or budget for the years, the short term, short term a year and the long term is often three to five years. Right. So I'm talking on immediate budget that the budget we decided to do lives, a billion dollars, or half a billion dollars in trading, and we need to make a GP certain labels, right. And that the bottom number should be certain level, right? So, it's my job to look at like a dashboard to understand how much we have long position, short position, the trade margin. Then what comes, like CapEx opex is already given there. Like we defined it already that how much is, is being cost, right? The, the trade cost and whether we are getting the bottom number or not. So if bottom number is coming out, the way we agreed means the business is going, uh, the right direction. If you find any division on that number, what we agreed we have to involve ourself to look at, into the team where is going wrong, might we. Some decision taken out for a strategy that let's take it to go in. Right. And we understand that. Okay, this isn't taken by so and so let's proceed it. So. The most important to see our every plan, every budget, every either talking about a top number, the GP and P, or talking what are you doing on the investment so everything on key key factor given in the system, we see every month or week. And we understand things is going the right direction or wrong direction. And whenever you find this is not going the right direction, you involve yourself, see, and figure out what is going on and can support your team. So it's really important. You set that target, you set those goals, um, with a whole lot of metrics. And then from there, you only interfere once, you know, somebody's off target. Which I think is great, you know, you let everybody, as long as everybody's heading in the right direction, that's great. No micromanagement needed. Nobody likes to be micromanaged. However, if we're off target, then we get involved and we find out what's going on. Yeah. Right. Well, so look at in the trading company or running any large processing company, the yard, it has to be very well structured. And I must say, if my personal understanding and personal feeling. very strong feeling that management has to be very flat. That should not be a complicated one, right? This industry is not well structured, right? So the flat structure is always required into this business. So if you're giving someone to running the business and the business is running accordingly, you should give them the space because we have to, You know, delegate your, uh, the business plan to your team, right? And team has to take care and you have to be all the time with them to support left and right on his shoulder saying that you need any assistance. I'm here. So, whenever it goes, like, off plan, then they come forward or you can repose them. I seen in my organization all the time that anything goes beyond that. The team comes from forward. We never go forward to ask them what is going on. He said, hey. David, I'm getting 1, 2, 3 challenges. What's your feedback? Shall I take it or shall I go according to plan? And you have to take a call depending on the market. The market is a bullish or bearish, and then you said, okay, go ahead accordingly. So last year was the same with what we're talking, that business didn't go with the plan and we've taken care. I called the board meeting. I told them that we agreed 1, 2, 3, but things are not moving forward because Uh, with following and following, uh, challenges and the board said, yes, this is a market. You can go ahead and do your best and believe me, we did better than that. What we agreed end of day, not on the profit side, but on the management side. And it's interesting, right? Cause in a flat structure, you need really good people. Right. So how do you, um, look after your people? How do you make sure that you don't lose your key employees? How do you make sure they don't go to somebody else or leave the industry or, you know, how do you look after your guys? Very good question. You know, we have a huge industry today, and that industry is going to be. More and more with the circular economy. So let's talk about the people how you can manage it. So from day one, this is what I learned and what I put forward in my organization. When I made my structure of the company, defining very well from the beginning saying that any beginner, I'm not talking the experience holder, the beginner can join. As an official or clerk, and one day he could be the CEO. The time be fine. So, if you look at our structure, we are giving them that you can go to any joint finance, commercial operation, IT or HR, but the whole structure is going to, to connect with the CEO. Right. So the last job is the CEO and the chairman, right? So there's no barrier that you can stuck up any, any place you can be as a content or you can be a junior traders. You could be operational feature and you can be one day CEO, the only the time that how much you learn from this business, how much have potentially to grow this business, right? So we made a very good a structure and then we made a success and plan, right? So. If a section is very good in inline, people understand that he started here and he can ending up to that levels. Believe me, everyone happy to see that. And this is the reason most of people, my team members are very old. I mean, I joined, let's see, 2022 or 23 years ago, and I have nobody that left us in my department so far. I'm so blessed so graceful that. The whole team is still with me so far. Yeah, that's awesome. Because, um, if you've got people that are staying with you for a long time, you can achieve so much more, you know, having to retrain people, bring in new blood, new juniors, et cetera, it can really affect culture and it can make you stagnant and struggle to, to keep the trajectory in the same direction. Yeah, it's true. If you look at, you know, our industry is not very. Effective. I don't say this is any very much like newcomers wanted to come into, but if you project yourself as a corporate branding that you are doing something better for your involvement, better for your nation, better for your country, better for the world, right? If that message, if you can create it, anyone can be attacked to your company and can, can say, okay, I'm ready to join you. Right? So, today, I believe for all corporate or all good company who are working in this industry, you have to make a brand to come forward, to attract the good talent, right? The talent goes for the IT jobs, banking jobs, you just name it, not in a scrap industry, but I must say that today, the people talking about a circular economy, I think this is the best way to attract the people to say that you're doing for your nation and for your country and for you, for the whole world, right? So I mean, 100 percent agree. I'm like, that's exactly it. If we're going to get the next generation and the next generation is very interested in the circular economy, they're interested in sustainability. Now, no one does it better than the metal recycling industry. So if the next generation is interested in that. What we need to do is promote what we're doing and one plus one will equal two. It's that simple. But right now our one is not being done. There's the sustainability piece. We're not making ourselves known enough. And I think over the next 10 years, you're going to find we're going to become more and more, um known. We'll get more and more exposure. People are starting to I guess come out from the hideout where everybody in our industry has been hiding. Well, you know, nobody likes to mention that we make, our industry makes a lot of money, um, and kept it all secret. So slowly, but surely we'll come out and we'll start attracting the next generation. Talking about next, talking about next generation, um, what do you see happening with technology in our industry? What have you seen? You brought in a bit of software 20 years ago, and you've had SAP coming to your business. And I'm sure that was a huge project and cost a lot of money. Where do you see us going? Well, uh, as, as a professional, when I started my career, I believe that technology can change the world. And this is a proven that the technology is changing the world in all segments, not talking about only recycling. So for me, You know, then, uh, industry where we walk, it's required at the best technology, right? Still, we had a lot of process or a structure or or processing. That is not well defined, right? And you can see the many gray area in our operation in the yard or into process. That 1, you can bring them so today, if I say something that my quality is the best 1, right? Okay. I say it's the best one. This could not be the best one, right? So the only technology can be bring the transparency, transparency. I don't know what I am. I'm missing it or transparency. It's called technology, right? Either we're talking about AI or software or any distance platform where you can really prove yourself that you are the best, best into. So, for me, the technology is the best part of our industry is required to be happy. And to attract many industry that we are doing the best. If you look at like, you know, two decades ago, then we won't say you are this crap guys, you are doing like, you know, the bullshit job, we can't trust you, you don't have a credentials, right? But today technology bring people saying that, Hey, you're doing the best job in the world, you're making any environment, uh, clean, cleaner than, than that. What are you doing the job, right? So you should must, you, you must respect her. And that is all happening due to this technology, right? So I'm very positive for what, uh, for technology. Yeah, we're, our industry is being legitimized. We're becoming from being that junkyard, you know, in the back of the suburb somewhere in the back of the city. Um, we're now actually becoming the pride and joy. Well, hopefully, maybe it's pushing a bit, we'll get there, but we're slowly becoming more, um, as I said earlier. Getting more exposure for the good stuff that we do, um, technology will come hand in hand. Um, I think for a long time, our industry has avoided technology because we were scrappy. Um, and I think the next generation are coming in and going, we want efficiencies. We want data. We need to do things better. Um, and I think technology, yeah, absolutely. I think, um, I agree with you. We'll play a very big part. Let's talk about how you've used capital to grow your business. So I don't know if you're able to talk about how, um, your, your business uses capital or how you would recommend companies to use capital. You know, is it, you worked in a bank, should they be taking bank loans to buy equipment? Should they be taking their time and slowly and self funding it? Should they sell equity? Now, what sort of experience do you have, or what have you seen in that sort of space? Well, so, uh, any, I can talk, uh, if I could take a decision that what could be, uh, any decision. So, for example, if you are running any business, any business, like let's decide X business you are running. And you know that your capital, your working capitals are giving return for investment X. Let's say your return for investment is giving 30%, right? Or 25 percent or 20%. Whatever the percentage you are getting last three years, four years. That money you can create a capital growth while keeping in your working capital, right? And you've got a chance, supposedly, to invest this money into the capital. Like you're talking about assets buying, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So if I would be the guys to take this season, if my fund is working like beyond 20 25 percent return on investment, I'll never involve 100 percent of my own money into the capital. I have to take, you know, kind of, uh, mortgage loan, the lowest interest, I need maximum percentage as much I can get it. And the minimum percentage I can put it into, uh, which is minimum requirement. You have to put it and I can keep my money into business where I'm getting more than 20 percent return on investment. So, for example, the bank loans are for the mortgage is three, four, five, 6%, right? So I'm paying 6 to 7 percent to bank and I'm getting from my money 20 I'm getting like more than 10, 12%. So I'll suggest to people who have these data to understand that what they're working capital are bringing money back every year or every month. Then they have to be consortium that the percentage has to decide. Like you have to go for any of the mortgage and plus a smallest person from their own capital to invest into. And can you tell me about some equipment you've bought all the time you've been in Alkari on that, um, either a really great purchase or a really bad purchase. Um, if it's bad, don't mention the name, but happy for you to mention some good names. If you've bought any piece of equipment that was outstanding. If you look at, like, a group that people say that we are 1 of the leader that we go forward to test all equipment. Right? If you come to our yard and see. That we try to get all relevant equipment in our yard to test them. Right? Uh, most of equipment or machines, what we bought it is work very well. The only, we say that machine didn't work well, or that machine worked very well on the percentage wise. So I can give you the example, any machines or equipment we bought, and it's working over 90 percent of their productivity, we said this is working fine. But, you know, recently, uh, we find that we are going fast enough. We had like old machines, uh, from the different countries. Especially I'm talking about the Brickett machine. I don't want to take the name. They're all our partners. They're all, they're giving support from the day one. Because our company is last 26 year old company. Right? So we had a partnership with all vendors. From the day one. They give us their all contribution up to our taxes. Right? But recently, if I talk about a Brickett machine. Sheer machine. That amazing. Because I'm not talking about the production. That harmless production they give. But, you know, they give any headache free maintenance. So, for example, if you're running like a thousand ton, the bricket non federal, and you have a couple of machine and they're not working well, you are all the time stuck with the maintenance, right? So, recently, like, I believe, a couple of years, we start buying, uh, Medso, Linban Medso, it's a great machine. They are doing fantastic, less maintenance. And once you install it, it's working absolutely fine. We bought, I think seven, eight years ago, almost 10 years ago, that some sheer plant from Italy, great. They're working absolutely fine. So we took some right decision on right time and really those, those machines are working absolutely. I mean, I must say great working. I mean, we are so happy with that machine. What, um, you said you bought a large share Italian, um, I'm guessing Vazzani. It's a good purchase so we can say them, right? We're not saying the bad name. We have almost three, three. Three Vazanis, yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now they're a fantastic piece of equipment. I think, um, I've seen them in a lot of places over the last few years. Um, it seems to be quite common. How long ago did you get yours? Uh, I didn't remember the years, uh, but it's supposed to be 2014 or 15, something like that. So you've had them for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You would have been getting in there quite early. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe 14 or 15. I guess, uh, 14 or 15. They've become quite popular now. I've seen that. Yeah, yeah. So, so Javed, um, one of the things that we do, we ask who you would like to see on Born Scrappy next. So is there anybody in mind who you think that I should interview? Yeah, we had a quite a lot of my friends who are working because we are in this industry last 25 years. So I know most of them, all of them. But if I, you asked me the first one, I'll give one of my close friends, David Skepsy, who sit, uh, in USA in Cormac. So I believe you should speak with them because he's, he's the guys who, who is in this industry last 25 years. And he, He worked in commercial metals long, and then he was an output as the longest, longest time. And now he's joined a new company called me. Okay. So, I believe he's the best guys to learn a lot of from him. His friend or my friend common friend is Michael Michael is the best guy. We're working together. Oh, which Michael Michael is a team, colleagues. He was also working as a commissioner directly in Alford in Alford. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So we'll get out of Jim. Um, absolutely. I am speaking to him. Um, I think next week I've got a chat to him. So, um, uh, I'll, I'll mention to him that you, you said we should get him on the show and no doubt he'll join us either for the season. He's a great guy. Jim's great. That's awesome. So Java, we're running out of time and, um, I want to just finish up with how we always finish up, which is getting to know you a little bit better. So we always, I always say that, um, if somebody sees you in a conference and they want to break the ice and they're not sure how to come up to, if they know what your favorite something is, it's a nice way to break the ice. So what's your favorite movie or TV show? Uh, well, I, I mean, you know, I watch movie, I watch TV shows, but if my favorite is one of the TV shows, it's called, uh, Kapil Sharma comedy show. It's a comedy show. It really, if you watch, you keep laughing, laughing, laughing, laughing. So I like them a lot. Okay. Even my wife has started watching because I watch a lot. So He is not s Awesome. Awesome. So you like comedy, that's great. Yeah. Um, do you have a favorite book? Do you read a lot? Ah, not very specific. I read, uh, a book, all of them in the management and, uh, kind of, uh, other books, but not very specific. Okay. And do you have a, uh, favorite place to visit? A lot? Uh, you know, the first, uh, my place was a Singapore. And then it's become Munich and Germany. Okay. Uh, but I like Singapore most of time in the winter, not on the summer. I was there a couple of weeks ago. Um, yeah, it was fantastic. I love Singapore. Great place to visit. Yeah. Yeah. Because the climate match with us. It's perfect. That's nice and easy. That's awesome. And Java, do you have a favorite quote? This is my last question for the day. Do you have a favorite quote you'd like to use? Well, what I do, I'm just sharing with you. We should be visionary that we got a reasons and we have to achieve it. If you're not, if you have no reason, it's very hard to manage your credit. So I appreciate that the people have had to have their reason that where he wanted to end it. And he had to execute them not the only thing. So, have you become a visionary. Yeah. Have vision and achieve it. Achieve it. Yeah. Have a vision and achieve it. You can't have the one without the other. Yeah. If you just have a vision, you know, you're just a dream. It doesn't make any sense if you're not achieving that. Yeah, exactly. Javed, this has been lots of fun, man. I appreciate you coming on to Born Scrappy. Thank you for joining us. So, so happy to, uh, you know, being, uh, your guest and talking about my journey. Thank you very much, Stu. If you feel anything more you wanted to hear from me, I don't want to say goodbye because we are. Uh, friend and any time. Um, um, um, and you do it at your disposal. Let me know anything we can help you. Thank you job. It just might. Bye. Bye. Thank you.