Born Scrappy | S1E19 | With Guest Sebastien Perron

In this episode, I'm joined by Sebastien Perron. Sebastian is the Vice President of Recycling Procurement at Wieland and has been involved in trading at Sims, Alpert and Alpert, and American Iron and Metals.

In the episode, we chat about: 

·        Why following your gut can create the best opportunities

·        Working at the biggest companies in the industry

·        The difficulties of post-acquisition integration

·        How persistence can get you what you want

·        And so much more!

WHO IS STU KAGAN ANYWAYS?

25 years in the metal recycling game and still learning and growing…

I learnt from the best and worked my way up from yard labourer to Executive Director of Trading and Operations for the largest metal recycler in sub-Saharan Africa. Responsible for 4,500 employees, 85 sites, and the overall profitability of a multi-billion dollar operation.

Brought my breadth and depth of knowledge to bear and co-founded the fastest growing, most-loved, and most awarded metal recycling company in New Zealand. No small feat in a country where people are outnumbered 4:1 by sheep (spoiler alert: sheep don’t produce much metal waste). 

Father of two crazy-awesome boys. Husband to Lisa. Under 8 rugby coach. YPO member. Lifelong learner. Mentee. Mentor. Chief dog walker. Committed Stoic. Undefeated dance-off champion.

COME SAY HI ON LINKEDIN

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stukagan/

Transcript

0:01

Hi, I'm Stu Kagan and welcome to Born Scrappy, the podcast for scrap metal exporters and traders. Join me in conversation with some of the most experienced traders and operators that have helped shape this incredible industry. In today's episode, I chat with Sebastian Perron. Sebastian is the Vice President of Recycling Procurement at Vlandt and has been involved in trading at Simms. Alperton Albert and American Iron and Metals. In the episode we discuss working at the biggest companies in the industry, how persistence can get you what you want, why following your gut can create the best opportunities, the difficulties of post acquisition integration, and so much more. So let's hear from Sebastian. But first, intro. Hey, Sebastian. How are you? Good. How are you, mate? Yeah. Awesome, man. So glad to have you on. It's a pleasure. Yeah, we've spoken about it. We can make it happen. Yeah. Yeah. Same here. Eventually. And we've spoken about it for a few months now. So, uh, With your, um, hectic schedule and, uh, I'm glad we can make it happen. So thanks for joining us. Of course. Wouldn't want to miss it. Yeah, exactly. So for those that don't know you, and I think there are a lot of listeners that do know you, but for those that don't, give us a little bit of background of your journey so far in the recycling space. Um, so some of the companies you've worked for. And, and what wheel and the company with at the moment, what they do in this space. So I was born in, uh, 1980 and, uh, no, I'm not gonna go there. That was same year as me. Funny enough. So same, same year. Great stuff you go. But now it just gave, gave away my age. So that's Um, it, it was a funny thing stumbling across, uh, this industry. I mean, I was 21 or 22 when I, I, I met someone, uh, in Montreal who was in this industry and it was. Pure stumble on and, you know, before you know it, I start working in the yard as a metal sorter and, you know, made my way through that company to, uh, management in 12 years. So at American Art of Metal, which was a pretty interesting journey. And I really appreciate the opportunity they gave me for sure to, uh, to learn this industry. Um, you know, after that, I think our family was ready for a new adventure and, you know, we uh, moved to Hong Kong. Joining Sims, which was a great experience, you know, having had worked in worked in Asia for years before, uh, just being part of it and being there was, was a great experience and also just to teach the kids what the rest of the world looks like. It's not all it doesn't all look like Montreal and, uh, I think they appreciate that today and it made them, you know, better, better people, coming back to the United States from there, uh, for Sims for a while. And then I had an opportunity at Alpert and Alpert to direct that company, which was also a great experience. And, you know, here I am today. Let's say I'll skip one and go straight to VLN. I mean, VLN is, is, is just an amazing company. The largest I've ever worked for, uh, you know, 9, 000 employees. The interesting thing is. Villain specializes in manufacturing, which I've never been part of, I've always been part of recycling companies. So to see the other side, you know, the foundry side and the production side is quite interesting. I mean, we have over 80 locations, across the globe, here in North America, I had the procurement team for the foundries and also the buy and sell that we do out of our recycling facility in St. Louis. So it's a pretty broad interaction here in the U. S. But, you know, veal and as a whole is just really impressive. It's quite funny because people here you work for Sims for a period and then you go on to say, um, and Veland is the biggest company you've worked for. But most people in our industry see um, see Sims is the giant, right? And then, uh, and then you talk about Veland Yeah, I know. It was like that when I went to Sims, I was like, yeah, I'm going to work for the largest recycling company in the world. And it sounded really cool. And, uh, and it was, I mean, I learned a lot about the corporate world, which is something I was hoping to get out of it. And unfortunately, it just, you know, didn't work out. But, um, yeah, VLAN is, again, it's probably one and a half times the size. So it's, it's again, another world. I, I used to hear your name a lot. I worked at Sims just for one year. When I arrived in New Zealand and I used to hear your name a lot and you were just to fill in everybody else. You're on the global trade side. So you were handling, um, all the trade for, for, um, the global footprint, right? Yeah, I was, uh, supporting Graham, I think, in the global trade role at SIMS, uh. You know, at American, um, I had come up in, in basically dealing with overseas customers and domestic aluminum, as you would say, but aluminum as for your Western listeners and, you know, going to Hong Kong was. You know, a transition before coming back to the U. S. The purpose in the U. S. Was to leave the non Ferris division for the U. S. Operations. But while I was in Hong Kong, I was definitely working international trade, you know, moving material from New Zealand, Australia to to Europe to the U. S. Vice versa. Uh, some things that just weren't being done in the past. So that was, that was a good challenge. Were you, um, specifically trading your own groups metal or were you also, um, handling other companies outside of Sims? Yeah, at that stage we brokerage trading was. In its infancy, I think, on the non ferrous side, on the ferrous side, it was quite mature at Sims, but most of the sales that we were doing were just trying to position the yard material, I would say, uh, out of the 45, 000 metric ton ish per month of non ferrous that was getting moved around, there was probably only One of, of trading. Yeah, gotcha. Um, let's let's, you've got incredible experience and, and I like, because there's a wide range of different employers that you've worked for in different teams that you've been a part of. You've also spent a lot of time in the yard. So, um, going through your journey is going to be really helpful and trying to get some stories from you, um, learnings for a lot of us. So talk me through. A tough trade that you've had to deal with in the past and something that was really, you know, a bit of a stumper that you had to deal with and, uh, and get through. I mean, what comes to mind is 2008. Um, I mean, I was four years in really only one year of. You know, market exposure and here I am actually, I was traveling from a B. I. R. to, uh, to Japan for the first time. Very exciting. And, uh, you know, the whole Lehman Brothers thing started falling down and, uh, I didn't know what was going on. You know, from 2004 2008, the recycling industry looks so great. Everything just, you know, prices were just going higher and metal was flowing. And suddenly we had a few 100 containers with no one that wanted it. Uh, you know, no matter how much deposit they paid, the market tanked so badly. In in in different markets, uh, this was happening. So it was a real challenge to prioritize the issues and to figure out how we're going to deal with it because no one had had to do this before. And, uh, you know, you couldn't get a hold of people. Uh, some people disappeared. You had, you know, had to go to Asia, try to. Right. With steamship lines, you know, certain countries when containers arrive and no one claims them, it's not, you can't even export them even though you're, you're the shipper. Uh, in some cases, customs were cleared, but they didn't pick them up. And, uh, yeah, so I would say, you know, there's been a lot of little funny stuff along the way, but that was definitely the worst. So were you at AIM at the time? Yes. And what sort of role did you have in the company? In 2008, were you head of sales or working as a trader there? Yeah. No, I was heading the aluminum sales after, you know, three and a half years working in the plant, sorting in the department's, uh, shipping, receiving. I drove a forklift for quite a while, so I was stuffing containers, I think, as you say, out, in a NZ. And, uh, I did a lot of that, uh, which was great. I mean, I wouldn't give a day back. Um, so I, I had. A year in me of trading in Asia, India, uh, Europe and the US. So it was, I'm still pretty green. So it was quite a, you know, big challenge. The reason, the reason why I ask is I was part of a greater trading team, um, with a head of trading above me. When that all happened, I had spent, um, it's 2008. So it's been about. Nearly 10 years, um, in the yards and progressing through different roles in the yards before that. And I think it was 2007 when I joined my trading team and this is back in South Africa, but we had about six or seven traders on the team and we had head of trading. So I'd only been on the trading side. Granted, I'd seen the prices moving up. I'd been a rep on the road buying. I'd been a branch manager or general manager of different regions. Um, but so I'd seen the markets always climbing. We always made a lot of money because whatever I bought today, I sold tomorrow and, and made money, right? Yes. Up until 2008. It's hard to screw it up. I joined the Yeah, exactly. I can say that. Yeah. Yeah, you're quite right. And 2007 joined the trading team and 2008 all hell broke loose. And I just remember, you know the guy that I reported to you having to get on a plane and fly to China right. And try and negotiate contracts. Um, with everybody and we had thousands and thousands of tons of copper and brass on the water at the time and with, as you can imagine, massive, massive values. Yes. And that was really hectic. Um, so that's why I was wondering what position you were in. So you were head of aluminum. Um, so you were having to make those decisions for the company, right? And, um, difficult because you don't necessarily have anybody else to make a decision for you. There, you know, I mean, I was working closely with one of the owners, uh, Zorbo was our biggest headache, but. You know, ultimately, he would say, you know, we're gonna do this. We're gonna do that. And all I have to execute. And, you know, some of it was Difficult. Some of it was a little bit easier. And would you say you came out, um, okay at the end? I mean, they're obviously still a thriving business, so you wouldn't have done too bad. But did you take losses on on a few things? Yes, we definitely, uh, let's say multiple millions. You know, in the end, you had to find a buyer for the material, uh, you know, or else things would just sit in, in a container lot in a foreign country and just accumulate detention and damage. And even if the steamship line was going to give you a 50 percent discount, which was probably the best we could get at the time you were. You had to make a decision and you had to find a buyer and take that hit so You know it it really educated me on No matter how how big your deposit or how well you think you know a consumer, you know when things go really bad It's not a whole lot you can do in some cases Yeah, no, no, I hear you. We also, we also went back a few million. So, uh, it's tough times for sure. And Sid, talk me through some tough decisions you had to make either personally or for a company and the lessons you might've learned through that. Well, I always say the toughest. Decision I've ever had to make was to leave American Art of Metal, actually, after 12 years, um, you know, I felt that that company really gave me a shot in life and in business and, you know, taught me a lot of valuable things and very, very difficult decision to, to break out of that. But, um, I think it was important for me to think about who, who I want to be when I grow up. You know, something that we don't take the time to do when we're caught in the middle of a million different things, you know, and and Money aside, you know, it's what what's the challenge? What's the opportunity? What's the the environment that you want to be part of and uh, maybe I didn't know for sure but I knew I was willing to To take a chance and do something different. So yeah, what I learned was that I you know I did the right thing. I still have a lot of respect for that company and and most of the people that are there um But you know, it was the right decision for my family and I so sometimes you just have to Follow your gut and take a risk. Yeah, and it's great to hear because obviously you have a lot of respect for the company as well and often people will even, you know, um, that's not really wasn't even a tough decision at the time. So you obviously enjoyed what you were doing. Um, something that makes me think of is, um. Somebody once told me that the way to plan for your future is to decide what you want at a certain time. And this can be like any goals or any sort of strategy planning. Um, so it might be 10 years. So you decide this is where I want to be. This is what I want to have learned. This is the education I want, whatever it might be. And this is the position that I want and then work backwards. All the way back to where you are today, and if you then see that your trajectory doesn't match where you're meant to be tomorrow, you have to make the change today. You can't expect to make it in five years time if you want it to be somewhere in 10 years. So if you knew that you wanted to have that growth, you wanted to have that sort of education, maybe you wanted your kids to experience, you know, to to, in 10 years time, be more worldly and know that. Then you work your way back and you go, well, I have to make a change now. And that change might be joining the CME or SEMS in Hong Kong. Yeah, it's, it's true. I, I wish my life was that organized, but you know, I could foresee that. And I think this industry has a, has a way of throwing curve balls at us as, you know, I think you and I discussed offline different things and, you know, in our lives. And, um, You have to remain nimble open minded. Um, I think you have to be willing to pivot. Yeah and resilient Like you have to be really when something's thrown at you You know, I think resilience is interesting though, because you only kind of find out you have it when you're in deep, deep water. It's not something you can go, yeah, I'm resilient, but I've, you know, had a silver spoon in my mouth and I've never had any sort of problems. When you get thrown in the deep end, you find out, um, and the more you get thrown in the deep end, I guess the better that muscle is worked and the stronger you get. I mean, just as a general thing in life, I feel that from what I've seen, the people that go through the most adversity come out the strongest and are most driven. It's fascinating. Then that brings us into childhood night and parenting. And should we be so good? You know, should we be, should we stay away from that one? Yeah, yeah, exactly. This could be a whole nother episode. I'll have to have you on season two, when we talk about parenting in the middle of a cycling industry. Yeah. Alright. Talk to me about, let's skip that one. Yeah, no, no. You'll be on, mate. Talk to me about, um, collaboration, how over the years you've collaborated or you've seen the companies that you've been with, collaborate, um, working with, you know, other associations, other people, other companies in the industry. I think that we're. Hyper hyper local industry, and we don't necessarily collaborate enough. Well, I would say those that I've seen that succeed the most have a collaborative spirit, you know, whether you're starting in a company, whether you're you're higher up in the echelon, you have to treat everyone. With the utmost respect, right? You have to consider everyone's situation and be sensitive to it. So, um, I think one of my best, you know, exposures to that, uh, during American iron and metal days, we, we went through a rampant acquisition spree. And we were, you know, we're making partnerships or, or, uh, full acquisitions. And because of, I guess, the situation I was in at the time, they would. They would send me to these JVs to, Hey, I'm going to tell you how you're going to do things now, because, you know, you're now part of the, the big, the big company. And, and that's, it's difficult because, you know, owner operators who've done well for themselves, who. You know, most of the times we've worked really hard their whole life. And, you know, you, you, you're young and you're trying to bridge the two companies and, uh, you know, you have to earn their trust. Uh, they have to sense that you're, you're working hard, that you're in their best interest as well as, you know, well, both companies really. And I think, uh, That was a really big challenge in collaboration and, and, and trying to get that buy in and I feel like I did quite well, unfortunately, so well that they, they kept doing, they kept sending me to these joint venture areas. And I would tell my wife, all right, I'll see you in two months. I got to go here. And, but, um, that's it, you know, it's, it's, um, it's, it's. It's a good example of it for me. The, um, it's a great example because, um, post acquisition integration is one of the hardest things corporates deal with. Often, um, if you're doing it for the first time, it can be overlooked and you think, Oh, well, we'll just do a joint venture. We'll buy a company and then we'll just integrate and it'll use our processes and systems and everything will be fine, but you don't take into consideration exactly that, right? You're going to own an operator that's been doing it for, who knows, 30, 40 years. Um, and they've got a set way of doing it. All the people that they've trained and they're all. Um, staunch followers of the own operator usually as well. And you're having to come in there and try and convince everyone that, um, you have there, you know, um, you have them in mind and want to make sure that, um, this is the best for everybody, but they all obviously see you as, um, just a henchman and coming from the big boss and, uh, yeah, that, that's very tough and it's a great form of collaboration because. I think you would have learned about collaboration so much during the experience that you gained during that period is massively valuable and everybody's so different and how do you connect with each one and what's that thing that gets them to connect with you a lot of times it's well, if you package it this way. You'll make more money. Uh, that seems that seems to resonate a lot. Uh, yeah, and this way might be more efficient. You get to go home at 5 p. m. and go see your family instead of working until seven. You know, we've got these processes in place that free you have to go and spend time doing the things you want to do. But you got to work out what drives each person and that's where your experience that you learned during that time is, is massively valuable because it will help you in so many other roles you play. It's about often bringing people on the journey, making sure that they're a part of the decision making so that they feel a part of it so that they can, you know, drive the company in the right direction. There's so many of those aspects to that post acquisition integration that are important, but that you can use in other parts of, um, you know, your role in the company. I agree. I would only add to that, you know, push yourself in a discomfort zone and then you, you, you, like you said, you figure your way out and it just makes you a better person. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. I know it's pretty sketchy, but it's true. Well, so I guess when we come to the quotes at the end, um, your quote. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. No, I'll find it. I'll find a different one. Find another one. Good work. So tell me, have you been doing this now? Um, it's got to be almost 25 years, 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Um, what's the career highlight that you've had? Um, and what do you think got you there? It's not over yet. You've got a lot longer to go. You're my age. So we've got long to go. But so far, if you were to look back and go, you know, that's a highlight. I really enjoyed that. And this is what got me there. Well, this might not be a good one for you, but I think the highlight was joining the industry. I mean, honestly, it's I had no idea it existed. You know, here I was living my life parallel and not doing a whole lot with it at the time. And, you know, stumbled across, you know, one of the owners of the company. And, you know, uh, what I think is, is valuable. And I think it's, it's kind of cool to talk about it a little bit is, um, after I noticed that this person had some level of success, um, I was like, wow, that's, you know, what, what industry is that? And then they're like, well, it's a recycling industry. I'm like, well, I. I have no idea what that means, but okay, you know, and uh, so I actually called the owner back six months later and I said, Hey, I still don't really understand what you do in your website. Kind of sucks. I didn't say that. But at the time it really did. I mean, this was, you know, early 2000s and no, if you weren't in tech, it wasn't great. So they even had a website. Yeah. Lucky they had one. So I said, uh, but I'd really like to work for you. I said, I, Okay. You know, you're successful. I'd like to be successful. I'm willing to put in the efforts. I'm willing to start from scratch. Just learn. And, you know, I don't know what got into me, but I made that call and it took a little bit of time, maybe another year and a half of persistence to eventually. You know, get on the shop floor and I think that that's the highlight because, you know, that's what allowed me to experience everything I have, uh, with my family and travel the world and, you know, meet so many great people and, and have a lot of good dinners. Maybe the dinners is actually the highlight. Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say it's time to give a secret, um, highlight in all that was actually the dinners. So, um, you glad you joined the industry and we'll just, we'll do the highlights on LinkedIn. So you glad you joined the industry because you got to eat good dinners. Yes, we're just going to use that snippet. Yeah, maybe we'll cut that one out. I don't know. So when we're promoting for the new generation to join our industry, I had a whole long thing. I was going to say when you were talking there about, you know, this is so good for the next generation, but I think we're just going to use join our industry and get good dinner. Travel the world and discover great food. Sounds great. Sounds great. But seriously though, I mean, that's a great highlight and we're constantly looking at, you know, we're now in our forties and we're constantly looking at who the next generation is. Of recyclers and how do we bring them into our industry? How do we attract them to our industry? And we're a hidden industry, man. Like we are, like you say, you knew nothing and then you met somebody who's done well and you're like, Oh, that's interesting. I don't even know what you do. Um, and then even nowadays you go look at websites and they're not even up to scratch, right? It's like, get us a good website, put yourself out there, get on social media, tell people what you do and attract the next generation of recyclers. We do so much good stuff, not just financially. Right. So there's, there's a lot of benefit to be in it financially, but also, you know, the fact that you've got the next generation coming through that wants to also do good, like we're the perfect place for them to land, but we need to make ourselves known. So that thing that you, you know, your highlight is, is vital for the next generation and to share that. Well, and I would, something I would say to a manager is, you know, always be on alert. Whether you're going to the grocery store to Best Buy a hotel, you know, you try to pick people when you can, and it sometimes people are willing to take a leap and try something different and and do the right thing for the environment. And I mean, that's that's the old way. The new way. You know, veal in this very. Structured in that sense. I feel like they they're connecting with communities and high school and colleges and universities and trying to expose, you know, young engineers and trade workers to, you know, why it would be a good thing to join, you know, sustainable type company. That's really making a difference and, uh, that's it's important in the value stream. You can't build anything without Transcribed Well, copper, steel, and aluminum. I don't want to offend anyone in a different industry, but at least those three, maybe, yeah, no, you're quite right. And, and I think, um, yes, the more corporates are definitely looking through the universities and, uh, have different programs to bring three people, um, through the company, but then you've got the, you know, the own operators. Um, you can go for a cup of coffee every day and go, well, this barista is always here on time, really polite, remembers all my orders, that person's going to be brilliant, um, on my front scale, that's something right and, and, and, and then bring them through and, you know, they're young and they're driven, they're motivated, and if you can identify that I, for me and my experiences, those people are the ones that really, really step up to the plate, um, and I really enjoy bringing them through. Also, just the You kind of get back as well when you, when you, um, when you give back and you kind of, um, bring these people through. And then the next thing they become, you know, your senior management team or director of your company. And you remember when they were just pouring you coffees, right? And, um, you give them the opportunity and so many people just need the opportunity. Once they get that opportunity, if they take it with both hands, man, that's a, it's a great feeling for both parties. It is, it creates loyalty. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. Now you, that's why I asked. Well, this is why I asked earlier when you were in the some side, you were mainly trading the Sims material. What I'd like to ask people is if you were to give some tips for exporters. To optimize their trading strategy and these are for the metal recyclers out there that are listening Um, what would you recommend they do to really get the best out of their trading strategy two words? Be honest, you know, um one of the best pieces of advice I ever had was You only have one One reputation, you can't kill it. You know, you have to baby it. You have to make sure, um, you're doing the right thing because over time you'll win and, and short term gains aren't worth the longterm ones. One building relationships, you know, people help you out when you're in trouble. You know, I think it's important to create balance. You know, if you're, you, you always want an extra penny, an extra penny, they'll quote you less knowing you want an extra penny, but there's a better way I think to, to, to do it is, you know, Hey, I really need three cents this time and next time I can give you one, you try to pull a little bit to your side, but. You have to be able to give and take, and I think that the most important thing is how you develop that respect in those relationships over time, because it's a small industry and just like on the supplier side on the consumer side there, they're all talking to each other. So I think the best advice I would give is. You know do what you say you're going to do and and just try to do the right thing Yeah, that's awesome. The be honest, you know, just those two words if Traders in these companies and owner operators stuck that on their wall um, it would go a long way because It comes down. There's so many different aspects in our industry, um, or times that if you just stick to that, you won't land up in trouble Right? So think about, um, quality issues. Everybody says they have the best, whatever grade you want to make it, right? Yeah, it's perfect. You're going to love it. It's great. Instead of going. You know, my Elmo, it's not exactly what, you know, I've got some of it's a bit larger. Um, here's some pictures of it. These aren't pictures I took three years ago, which I've kept stored because I use the same pictures every single time because they're of one perfect batch. This is the accurate pictures of what this Elmo is going to look like. You'll see a few issues in it. However, there are some starters and alternators in as well, immediately the buyer knows what they've got coming. Instead of it arriving at the warehouse and immediately their back is up because they were lied to and that's how you feel straight away when your material arrives and it wasn't what you thought. If you manage expectations for the buyer, immediately their relationship will be stronger. I agree and if you make a mistake going up to it. You know it happens and I love the the top 10 commandments of scrap I don't know if you you've run through them yet on your show No, but you know, it's it's really funny and I swear i've heard every one of them at different times you know, uh, one of them is uh, they say uh at the bottom of what barrel, you know, or um I've never had this issue with anyone else, you know, and these things like they don't Something people, I think, need to always be cognizant of is time and energy and the value of it. Because sometimes it, you know, the time you take to try to settle a claim and argue and, you know, unless that's your thing, being really argumentative, it's really not, doesn't help you make your business better. Oh, in fact, it makes it worse. Like the amount of time and effort when you receive that email and it's like, oh, there's been an issue as an owner operator. I can tell you what, like. You're doing so much all day. Oh, you're wearing every single hat in the company. And then you've now got to deal with this. And immediately you want to ask the guys in the yard, can they remember, but there's a two or three months ago when they packed it, you know, you'd rather, and this goes back to be honest, if you know, you loaded something that was an issue, I'll just say, so give the guys a heads up immediately. And this came out a few times of Bourne Scrappy where the buyers have said, tell me that by mistake you loaded. Whatever it might be in this parcel. So then when it arrives, the guys who open the container, don't get livid and angry and, you know, back up straight away that then I want to fight you because you try to get away with something in the parcel. Rather you let them know that, Hey, by mistake, the loader didn't realize that was in the pile. So he loaded heads up. It's on your way. It's on the way. That'll go a long way. Absolutely. But I don't think I've ever seen it. Like I don't think people do that. I mean, somebody mentioned born scrappy early on and one of the first papers, but I can't think of anybody actually doing it because even if they do know of it, they immediately, well, hopefully it won't be picked up. Yeah, there's a little part of them that says, let's see. Yeah. Let's see. It won't be as bad as. Yeah, it should be, and it's always going to be worse because their backs up when they received it, right? So it wasn't on the spec. It wasn't meant to be in there immediately. Now, if it's 10 percent they're gonna make it 20 percent because now they have to deal with it. And, and what else have they maybe missed in other parcels from you that they've offloaded? So they'll increase it a little bit and then you're having to deal with that headache. Yeah, it's not, it's not fun. So trading, optimize your trading strategy, be honest, you know, I couldn't agree more with that. So now when dealing with a new buyer, so now we're talking still about the, the exporters, um, or sellers in general, the middle processes, when they dealing with a new buyer, in your experience, what should they be considering early on in this relationship? Uh, you know, spending some managing Alpert and Alpert, this opened a whole new, uh, bag of experience for me. Um, You know, they were buying, or I don't know, they might still be, but buying material from, you know, emerging markets in Central South America, in West Africa, North Africa, markets I had never participated in. And I was very, uh, you know, I was like, what's the, you know, know your customer. I was going to say KYC on this one, you know, how do you Figure out if this supplier and, you know, this part of the world, uh, is, is reliable because, you know, there's not a lot of ways to, you know, no, you know, you sound like you can call one of your friends in the industry and say, Hey, have you dealt with this company before? They, they probably don't know them. And, you know, they don't want to say who it is because they want to protect the, the new customer in the new market. And I mean, for me. It's, it's the people, um, and, and it's very, it's not a perfect science because again, you, you kind of have to follow your gut, you know, I think that you have to try to look beyond the transaction and see the person that you're dealing with and, you know, there are certain, um, cultures that. You try to engage in business with, and it takes 6 months a year. I don't want to put anybody on the spot, but, you know, they're very detailed about, um, the relationship, the, you know, performance capabilities. And, uh, you know, when you think about it, they do it for a good reason, because once they start business with you, you're in, and unless you really mess it up, you're, you're So I think you really somehow have to try to know, and if you're going to, if you're going to venture in foreign markets. You have to jump on the plane. I mean, I say that, but I, I bought material out of Morocco, um, you know, for three years from, from a guy that I had never met and, um, but, you know, it just felt right. And then when we met, we, we just became really good friends because we just closed that loop. So, so it's the people, right? It's the people behind the businesses, the relationships. That are absolutely key. Yeah, I totally agree with that. I'm trying to get to visit them. You know, a lot of people speak about trying to get to visit if you can. Um, he's also, he's also really helpful. Um, know who you're dealing with. Um, it's really important. Do you, um, for example, with the guy in Morocco, Would you usually start with a really small parcel as a trial and see how they perform on that? Or, you know, back in the day, did you go all in and let's just get this going? Yeah, I've heard some all in stories. Uh, I've actually had to clean some up at Alpert in particular. No, I'm, I'm a onesie twosie, you know, let's, let's bump the motors, see how it goes. Then you see how they communicate with documentation, pictures, you know, do they. To put the seal number on the bill of lading, you know, there's just a lot of little things that can make or break a good deal, uh, time wise. I mean, the worst thing is chasing a steamship line, you know, to change things or, or reconcile a container if there are issues. So, yeah, I would definitely be, uh, and then the quality, but then there's, I've heard other stories. It's like onesie Tuesday is great and then they go big and then it blows up. So, you know, I don't think there's a perfect answer to that. But if you have a, if you have a, people don't want to hurt people they like, or they care about generally, you know, people, people want to do the right thing with people that they, they, they like. So if you feel like you, you can get to a point where your communication and the relationship is at least. You know, to a certain level, I think it helps a lot. Yeah, great. And how did these exporters become preferred suppliers? And I guess, does it, does a preferred supplier get preferential prices? There's been a bit of back and forth with this on the show. Um, do you think you get a better price if you're a preferred supplier and how do you become one of those? It's going to be really repetitive, but, um, I think if you do what you say, you're going to do. Especially when you're dealing with difficult items, you know, things that are a little bit out, you know, it's not the vanilla 60, 63 new production extrusion, you know, you've got something that's a little bit different. You. You might, it might be 3 percent contaminant, 5%. You say, you know, you probably say three and hope they don't claim you five. But, you know, I mean, sometimes you take a little bit of a chance, but you know, you might want to say, Hey, it's 5%, even though you think it's, it's four, because you don't want to claim, you don't want an issue and you, you, you value this relationship. So do, do what you think is right. Um, treat people like you'd want to be treated. On performance, but the relationship is super important. I think if you take the time to develop a relationship, you will get preferential treatment. Uh, I have examples where, hey, we're not in the market, you know, we're just not buying and you're like, well, it's only two loads. You know, can you help me out? Okay. Yeah, I'll help you out. You know, they'll give you a fair price because You have a fair relationship, but sometimes it's not just the price. It's being able to move the item and, um, you know, but yeah, I think, uh, volume typically drives the best preferential pricing, but I do think that relationships can as well. Michael Pavlovsky spoke about exactly that. It's, it's not always about the special price, but it's having a home for your metal, um, that that's often really difficult. And when the markets aren't there, if you're a preferred supplier, often um, you'll be able to find a home for your material. And there's massive value to that. Definitely. There is, I mean, you know, financing inventory is, you know, and depending on the size of your facility to, you know, something might just be in the way. And it just gets worse and worse because you start putting stuff around it, or, you know, if it's worth three or four dollars a pound, or I don't know if you're, uh, the audience is more in metric ton, but so, it's makes, uh, just go with 7, 000 dollars, 7, 000 metric ton. You know, it costs a lot of money to keep it there. So it's great when you can move it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. A lot of companies are, I'd say the majority of companies, um, have to move it in order to be able to carry on buying cash flow is absolutely key and no buyer when there's no market is going to say, okay, well, I'll finance that while it's sitting on your floor. So, yeah, finding a home for your middle is important. Talk to me about how the industry has changed in the time since you joined. You've been in the industry for over 20 years. Um, how has it changed? ANd how, how do you think it's going to change in the next 10 years? Uh, in the next 10 years. Well, I think there's going to be a much broader attention to sustainability. Um, you know, we are certainly seeing it at VLN. You know, obviously we've been talking a lot about before VLN, but, you know, the, our customers and even our suppliers, there's a lot of conversations about sustainability. And, you know, I think it'll be a lot more important for people to be cognizant of that, whether you're a recycler, Uh, Uh, trying to get into a good consumer, uh, they're going to want to know more about your business. What are you doing to help the environment? You know, are you part of any programs? And I feel like there might be even new, you know, classifications that will come along the way. Um, but I think, you know, electrification, uh, Evie is going to drastically affect our industry. There's. Things that we won't see anymore things we'll see more of that. We're not familiar with. Um, but, uh, I think, I guess the only other thing I would add is, uh, you know, on on shoring, as we're saying, I guess, you know, as I grew up in the industry, it seemed like, you know, the E. U. is growing and becoming a bigger, happy family. And, you know, borders are opening trade, you know, uh, trade war, uh, limitations and duties is the word I was looking for now. It seems like there's, it seems like we're, we're going the other way. And I feel like, you know, nationalistic protectionism of commodities and critical minerals. And so I feel like 10 years from now, it'll be a different landscape. Because a lot of the, you know, advanced countries are going to want to keep these metals domestically for all the reasons, you know, whether it's national defense or, or just the fact that it's getting harder and there's less material to mine. So yeah, that'll be an interesting development to watch. Yeah, I think they're both going to be some huge changes on both those on the sustainability side as well as the protectionist side protectionism side from the countries from regions, I think, in particular, so there's a lot to watch, um, you know, and it's going to be about staying on top of it all, you know, the guys that can, we spoke earlier, pivot, the guys that are flexible, um, and can manage the change are going to be the ones that are successful. I agree. Yeah. Talking about that. Um, who are the companies or people that you watching in the industry that are pushing the boundaries? I mean, I don't know if I can think of any names because, you know, there's been a lot of consolidation. There are obviously some. Companies that are doing a lot of M and a there, you know, Rio Tinto and my taco. I don't know if you heard about that one, but, you know, metal goes a huge secondary aluminum, uh, billet and slap producer, uh, owned owned by a group that owns a big Canadian company, uh, recycling company and Rio Tinto came in and, you know, bought 50 percent of that. I think it was around 700 million. You know, these are the examples of. You know, vertical integration and the mining companies and the steel mills and the producers, even, you know, Veland bought a recycling company in the US just over a year ago, which was a huge step for us to get into recycling. And now we're building a recycling. Uh, secondary copper smelter in the U. S. I think, you know, we're gonna see a lot more of this happening. But the ones that I'm the most intrigued about are, uh, E. V. Battery recycling and the waste side of things. I mean, this is just growing at a rapid. Pace. I mean, the batteries are going to accelerate because, you know, it's not that much end of life now, but, you know, black mass, which sounds like something out of a, you know, star trek episode or whatever, you know, it's, it's okay. How do we recycle it? There's only a few that can do it right now. And, you know, how's that going to evolve? And who's going to do it will be interesting. Yeah, I think there's a lot to watch in those two industries, right? The e waste and batteries, um, a lot of good players, a lot of, um, innovation happening and with us, we're so aligned to those two industries, um, that I think you'll find a lot of metal recyclers playing in those spaces, um, and keeping a very close eye. So. Yeah, I'm also watching them quite closely now say we're running out of time and we always end with a little bit of getting to know you, right? So let's get to know you a little bit better. Do you have a favorite TV series or movie? Uh, TV series was probably Star Trek. I've watched a lot of that. Uh, I think favorite movie was probably, um, you know, something like Armageddon or, uh, Independence Day. You know, like this dramatic, uh, end of the world. Let's save the day kind of things. Yeah. How is it? And what's your favorite place to visit? You spoke earlier. You've traveled a lot. It's been some time with the family as well. Traveling. Where's your favorite place to visit? New Zealand, of course, I mean, it is at the top of my list. I really loved. I mean, so beautiful and the food and the wine. Um, I have to say easy is probably Europe just because it's so easy to move from one culture to another and being a foodies. One of my favorite things is, you know, experiencing the culinary offerings of each country and, and just, you know, seeing the beautiful sites, you know, there's so much history there. So, uh, I mean, every, there's so many places that are worth visiting. Um, I think for convenience and ease, Europe is probably a go to. Yeah. You're, if you're a foodie, I mean, it makes sense that you can travel through Europe and, uh, in such a small area, just get to. Taste all the different kinds of cuisine. That's, that's awesome. I, I plan to one day do a trip in America and try and get to a lot of different, um, smoking a Texas barbecue, meat smoking joints, um, but to do like a week long road trip and to just hit a whole lot of them. So I'm a big fan of barbecue. Might have the meat sweats on the flight home, but it'll be fun. It'll be fun. It'll be worth it. Exactly. And do you read a lot? Do you have a favorite book? You know, I, I don't, I keep saying to myself, I should take the time, but it's just tough with the kids and the life and everything. But I really liked, uh, Blink. I thought, you know, um, Malcolm Gladwell, he's, he's written. You know, I think a handful of books and I've read a bunch of them, but I just feel like, um, you know, the world is about people, right? And it's, it's how you position yourself and how respectful you can be empathetic. And I just think it's a good way to open up your mind on those things. Yeah, that's awesome. I need to read it. Sounds good. What's it? What's your favorite quote? My favorite quote. There's no future in the past for sure. There's no future in the past. You always have to look ahead and you know, you can't change it. You can't regret will only make things worse. So you take you take the lesson and you use it forward. I love that because so much. Um, that I speak about with my kids and family and work and whatever else is, is about putting things in the rearview mirror and moving forward. Right? So when you're driving, right, stick it in the rearview mirror. It's gone behind you. There's nothing you can do about it and keep that car moving forward. That's it. Focus on the next thing. So that's been awesome, man. So great way to finish. Um, Great stories really enjoyed having you on the show and we had been speaking about it for a while So i'm glad we got it done Um looking forward to meeting up with you in the next few association meetings, whether it's bar or mai Whoever it might be. Um, so thanks for being on born scrappy. You got it. Thanks. Thanks for considering me and I appreciated the experience Take care. Awesome. Cheers, mate. Bye